XTSM - Extreme TSM

[turbotwister]

Hi everyone,

I originally built my car for Tsm a few years back and then decided to build a stage 2 engine for my car.although i have a stage 2 my combo is more oriented toward a tsm combo which has put me into limbo.I ran TSL and TSO in bowling green even though i was extremely outgunned.I will most definetly compete in XTSM since my car is presently 3610lbs with me in it and the only change i need is to switch back to a 3 bolt turbo.

I do however have one thing i feel should be changed.I feel the 3650 weight limit for stage 2's should be more specific in reference to head choice/bore size and/or cubic inches.I have a 3.8 bore stage 2 with champion heads and dont think i have any more advanatge over a 109 engine other than more head bolts.i realize i should be weight penalized but i just feel the 3650 weight is a little extreme for my situation.if i had a 4 inch bore and/or stage 2 heads i could understand it.basically what i propose is a different weight limit for conventional heads vs stage 2 heads and/or bore size.this makes perfect sense to me.let me know what you guys think.

Thanks,Nick Piccione

Nobody has an opinion on this?

 

[V6RACER]

Hi everyone,

I originally built my car for Tsm a few years back and then decided to build a stage 2 engine for my car.although i have a stage 2 my combo is more oriented toward a tsm combo which has put me into limbo.I ran TSL and TSO in bowling green even though i was extremely outgunned.I will most definetly compete in XTSM since my car is presently 3610lbs with me in it and the only change i need is to switch back to a 3 bolt turbo.

I do however have one thing i feel should be changed.I feel the 3650 weight limit for stage 2's should be more specific in reference to head choice/bore size and/or cubic inches.I have a 3.8 bore stage 2 with champion heads and dont think i have any more advanatge over a 109 engine other than more head bolts.i realize i should be weight penalized but i just feel the 3650 weight is a little extreme for my situation.if i had a 4 inch bore and/or stage 2 heads i could understand it.basically what i propose is a different weight limit for conventional heads vs stage 2 heads and/or bore size.this makes perfect sense to me.let me know what you guys think.

Thanks,Nick Piccione

Hey Nick, Look forward to you joining us in 2012.

To the weight concern, one of the issues we have is being able to check displacement of the engines that run in the class now. Now we allow stage block cars like yours to join and have a place to race in a heads up environment without a way of checking the internals of the engine. The first set of rules had a difference in weight between Stage I & II engine types but when we had discussions about 109 cars being too light that kinda went out the window. In an effort to keep enough weight between the car combos and performance we have settled on the current weights. We have already seen that production style aftermarket heads can make the same power as stage II heads and probably even more with the limit on the turbo size.

Now...

Moving forward as we get different combos involved and see where the turbo's limit will be the weights will be adjusted up or down to tighten the field. If you are already at 3610 then we are talking about adding in 40-50 lbs. That's not alot of weight to add IMO.

 

[turbotwister]

Hey Nick, Look forward to you joining us in 2012.

To the weight concern, one of the issues we have is being able to check displacement of the engines that run in the class now. Now we allow stage block cars like yours to join and have a place to race in a heads up environment without a way of checking the internals of the engine. The first set of rules had a difference in weight between Stage I & II engine types but when we had discussions about 109 cars being too light that kinda went out the window. In an effort to keep enough weight between the car combos and performance we have settled on the current weights. We have already seen that production style aftermarket heads can make the same power as stage II heads and probably even more with the limit on the turbo size.

Now...

Moving forward as we get different combos involved and see where the turbo's limit will be the weights will be adjusted up or down to tighten the field. If you are already at 3610 then we are talking about adding in 40-50 lbs. That's not alot of weight to add IMO.

You do have some valid points jason.and your right.I dont have alot of weight to add becuase my car is already a tank.thats why i have a problem with adding more,lol.whatever happens it seems this is by best choice out of any class.Ill tell ya what i do need.I need someone more experienced in this class to take me under their wing becuase i am definetly wet behind the ears.

Thanks,Nick

 

[re-evaluating]

leveling the playing field

Well this thread has moved a long way since last week when I last looked in.

I have a REAL suggestion that I would like to hear other potential racers thoughts on.

How about we do it the way NMCA does it. Winner of each race adds 50lbs that he will carry the remainder of the season that way NO ONE can dominate the class. If the guy that wins the first race wins the second race he get another 50lbs until the playing field is a bit leveler again so no ONE car dominates.



How about some feed back from the guys that plan to race if the rules are ironed out.

 

[Sam Colalillo]

max out rule.

Well this thread has moved a long way since last week when I last looked in.

I have a REAL suggestion that I would like to hear other potential racers thoughts on.

How about we do it the way NMCA does it. Winner of each race adds 50lbs that he will carry the remainder of the season that way NO ONE can dominate the class. If the guy that wins the first race wins the second race he get another 50lbs until the playing field is a bit leveler again so no ONE car dominates.



How about some feed back from the guys that plan to race if the rules are ironed out.

I like this idea, if I were still partipating in Buick racing I would lobby for this rule. With an exception that after three wins you max out. Meaning that after you have added 150 pounds because of race wins you are exempt from adding more weight because of wins. This would eliminate this person from trying to decide if they are going to continue coming to events because they are forced to weigh so much more than the others.

50 pounds per race win is a great idea in my opinion!!! It works well for the NMCA. It reduces the chance of domination, and helps level the field.

I also like the stage block rule, this will allow for a beginner to make some errors with out splitting a blok. AMAZING WE GET THESE 109'S TO LIVE TO THIS POWER LEVEL. A person doesn't realize how hard it is until they have done it. There are so many key board junkies that make it sound so easy on this board. I know the people that have shown up to the events and laid down some impressive numbers didnt just do it over night including myself. For me I could never Thank Cal Hartline enough for all the help he gave three years ago in getting the car to lay down the fast numbers. Guys like Dick Kerney, Scott Claridge, Jason White, Tim LeMay, Don Cruz, Chris Hogeland, Randy Alexander, John Plog, Walt Judy, and several others didnt get to go as fast as they have with out a learning curve that included hurting some stuff. Those that make it happen with the 109 deserve the weight break for thier effort, but in my opinion the weight break will be the biggest controversy.

Also in my opinion tire size, turbo size, and weight should be the main focus of the rules. These are the most important part of the equation in my opinion. No matter how big your engine is, the turbo is going to determine how much power the car can make. Basicly an engine is a big air pump, and the turbo controls how big that pump is. Tire Size will control the 60 foot, weight will control everything.


Xtsm looks pretty interesting. I think I will enjoy watching it, especially if it increases car count. I would hate to see it take cars from other classes though. Good luck to all those that participate.

 

[Sydwyndr]

What about this senario, what about adding 100lbs for a maximum of 2 wins for a total of 200lbs. What this would accomplish is to take iron head cars to the aluminum 109 weight (3250-3450), and also take the aluminum 109 weight to the stage weight (3450-3650). Since they are all 200lbs each, that would seem like a fair stopping point for all. Not sure how many races total in the year so maybe quicker weight gain would make a difference much sooner than a smaller one.
thoughts??

 

[sackracing]

If I win a race, I'll just use the prize $ at the buffet until I gain 50

 

[jdsgnx]

If I win a race, I'll just use the prize $ at the buffet until I gain 50

Some one's GOT THE RITE IDEA!!!!

JD

 

[sackracing]

mmmmm, all you can eat ribs....

 

[johnplogii]

It seems like a good idea at first but I can't imagine how I would feel about adding 100lbs of ballast to my car after spending thousands to take the weight out. At this point its looking to be cheaper to convert the car to meet THS rules over spending the money to take advantage of the new TSM rules. Problem is I want to go faster, not slower.

John Plog

 

[Sydwyndr]

It seems like a good idea at first but I can't imagine how I would feel about adding 100lbs of ballast to my car after spending thousands to take the weight out. At this point its looking to be cheaper to convert the car to meet THS rules over spending the money to take advantage of the new TSM rules. Problem is I want to go faster, not slower.

John Plog

John I think that this is only a suggestion to make things even out just in case someone tries to run away with the class. No way at this point to tell if that would happen. Only speculation and in no way represents what will actually take place.

 

[V6RACER]

How about we do it the way NMCA does it. Winner of each race adds 50lbs that he will carry the remainder of the season that way NO ONE can dominate the class. If the guy that wins the first race wins the second race he get another 50lbs until the playing field is a bit leveler again so no ONE car dominates.

I like this idea, if I were still partipating in Buick racing I would lobby for this rule. With an exception that after three wins you max out. Meaning that after you have added 150 pounds because of race wins you are exempt from adding more weight because of wins. This would eliminate this person from trying to decide if they are going to continue coming to events because they are forced to weigh so much more than the others.

50 pounds per race win is a great idea in my opinion!!! It works well for the NMCA. It reduces the chance of domination, and helps level the field.

I also like the stage block rule, this will allow for a beginner to make some errors with out splitting a blok. AMAZING WE GET THESE 109'S TO LIVE TO THIS POWER LEVEL. A person doesn't realize how hard it is until they have done it. There are so many key board junkies that make it sound so easy on this board. I know the people that have shown up to the events and laid down some impressive numbers didnt just do it over night including myself. For me I could never Thank Cal Hartline enough for all the help he gave three years ago in getting the car to lay down the fast numbers. Guys like Dick Kerney, Scott Claridge, Jason White, Tim LeMay, Don Cruz, Chris Hogeland, Randy Alexander, John Plog, Walt Judy, and several others didnt get to go as fast as they have with out a learning curve that included hurting some stuff. Those that make it happen with the 109 deserve the weight break for thier effort, but in my opinion the weight break will be the biggest controversy.

Also in my opinion tire size, turbo size, and weight should be the main focus of the rules. These are the most important part of the equation in my opinion. No matter how big your engine is, the turbo is going to determine how much power the car can make. Basicly an engine is a big air pump, and the turbo controls how big that pump is. Tire Size will control the 60 foot, weight will control everything.


Xtsm looks pretty interesting. I think I will enjoy watching it, especially if it increases car count. I would hate to see it take cars from other classes though. Good luck to all those that participate.

It seems like a good idea at first but I can't imagine how I would feel about adding 100lbs of ballast to my car after spending thousands to take the weight out. At this point its looking to be cheaper to convert the car to meet THS rules over spending the money to take advantage of the new TSM rules. Problem is I want to go faster, not slower.

John Plog

Here is the way I look at this.

I was like John at first, then I did some research on the NMCA reasoning for this and thought it was worth sharing.

NMCA, Unlike xTSM, has to deal with every car manufacturer and 100s of different possible combos. In the Buick world we have only a handful of combinations to deal with and all of them are based on the same aerodynamics of a 78-87 Buick Regal. So there is no advantage like running a '99 Firebird body against a '55 Chevy, BB vs SB, Turbo vs Nitrous vs Blowers, etc. You get the point.


Now, with that being said, Everyone has to run a limited turbo, meet weight for engine/head, Buick body, tires, etc. In xTSM You have several limits that everyone has, so there should be no advantages except the tuning capability and driving skill of the racer.


I remember beating a certain car that was several tenths faster than me at BG back in 2008. If you added weight to the winner and the winner was in fact the slower car to begin with now you just made it even harder for him to catch up.

Let's go with the rules that we have now and get everyone actually show up and race we'll all have a great time!

 

[Ken H]

Hello Jason. Just got finished reading the entire thread, Reminds me of the inception of the old TSE fights with Joe L.

First I would like to commend you for stepping up to the plate and trying get things going in a positive direction for your class. I was really interested in this for my car, but a couple of things keep mine from being able to participate. I felt compelled to reply anyway just in case I was able to change things on my car or if the rules were to allow it.

Now onto the heart of the matter. First off, I don't have any affiliation with Lonnie in any way, shape, or form, therefore I ask this next question from outside looking in. Why such a stiff penalty right off the bat for a completely unknown combo? I mean, he is in essence a pioneer spending his own money and time to try something that might help a lot of people. So why cut his legs off before he even starts? The turbo is the great limiter here. Just stay with me here folks, I'll give you an example of what I mean by that last sentence in a little bit. I say treat him the same as a true TSM car.

Next, I didn't realize there were so many Theoretical Phycicist in the Buick comunity. Everything is being based off of UNPROVEN cognitive thoughts and ideas. Really? Have any of you guys been following the " Who is the fastest with a 76 turbo " thread over on the Bullet? All different cars, engines, brands, heads, ect. The fastest cars, V-8's I might add, are all running the same et's as our fastest TSL cars. I mean exactly the same. These cars should be faster to the " scientist " here in the Buick community since there engines are bigger, right? I other words, why would I want to add so much weight to my car that will probably result in parts breakage, not to mention the danger of that heavy car getting out of control? As with the case of the above mentioned 76 turbo thread, the turbo is clearly the limiting factor. Not the size of the engine. I keep seeing the talk of not being able to " turn it up " with a 109 block. Are you guys telling me you are holding a lot on the table? Cruz, Jason, Kerney, did you guys only run 21 to 25 psi of boost or did you run it hard for those eight second time slips that you earned? You might have held a little bit back, but something tells me you pushed pretty hard to get those times. So why the extra weight when nothing has been even remotely close to proving all the theorectical racing. My guess is if the weights are put into effect as you have put forth, you will probably see a lot of 8 second 109 blocks and the Stage II's will be in the 9.10 to 9.40 range. Jusy MY opinion. Again the turbo is the great equalizer, not cubic inches, not the tires, and not the car, not coil over shocks, or much of anything else for that matter. I guess I look at it kind of like the fox making all the rules for the hen house. I don't mean any disrespect to you or anybody else on here, but I just wanted to give my input for this new class since I was interested. If you want you can get my number from Joe or Dave if you have any further questions or clarification on anything i've said. I personally won't be diappointed if I don't run in the class and I will surely continue to watch from the sideline - thats if Fiscus doesn't have me to busy with his car.

Thanks for listening.............Ken Hagood

 

[southern boost]

Lonnie combo was allowed same weights has the 109 Al headed motors thats been changed .


The weights are startin point they are only 100 lbs over the orignial weights for the class, your point is seen and understood .

The bottomline there is not alot of data on a stage combo with 71,but the one that I do know is faster then fastest Tsm cars right now at bout 3600 lbs .

This is a 109 based class they get the breaks ,the stage stuff has to prove where they stand ,if needed the weight will change on the stage stuff ,but have to start somewhere lets race !

The weight added on a win is just crazy ,example a slow car get a win weight added .

 

[V6RACER]

Hello Jason. Just got finished reading the entire thread, Reminds me of the inception of the old TSE fights with Joe L.

Change is something that human nature tends to avoid.. It's programed into us from day one.

First I would like to commend you for stepping up to the plate and trying get things going in a positive direction for your class. I was really interested in this for my car, but a couple of things keep mine from being able to participate. I felt compelled to reply anyway just in case I was able to change things on my car or if the rules were to allow it.

Thanks and I hope you decide to join us. What would keep your car from participating?

Now onto the heart of the matter. First off, I don't have any affiliation with Lonnie in any way, shape, or form, therefore I ask this next question from outside looking in. Why such a stiff penalty right off the bat for a completely unknown combo? I mean, he is in essence a pioneer spending his own money and time to try something that might help a lot of people. So why cut his legs off before he even starts? The turbo is the great limiter here. Just stay with me here folks, I'll give you an example of what I mean by that last sentence in a little bit. I say treat him the same as a true TSM car.

Ken, After all the discussions and doing some research I pulled back the Series II weights to the current AL/109. The point being is that we don't know how that combo will perform at this time. I can tell you that it's a good platform to start with if someone wants to try it out as Lonnie is doing. There will be a lot of custom work needed to make it work but the bottom end is very stout..

Next, I didn't realize there were so many Theoretical Phycicist in the Buick comunity. Everything is being based off of UNPROVEN cognitive thoughts and ideas. Really? Have any of you guys been following the " Who is the fastest with a 76 turbo " thread over on the Bullet? All different cars, engines, brands, heads, ect. The fastest cars, V-8's I might add, are all running the same et's as our fastest TSL cars. I mean exactly the same. These cars should be faster to the " scientist " here in the Buick community since there engines are bigger, right? I other words, why would I want to add so much weight to my car that will probably result in parts breakage, not to mention the danger of that heavy car getting out of control? As with the case of the above mentioned 76 turbo thread, the turbo is clearly the limiting factor. Not the size of the engine. I keep seeing the talk of not being able to " turn it up " with a 109 block. Are you guys telling me you are holding a lot on the table? Cruz, Jason, Kerney, did you guys only run 21 to 25 psi of boost or did you run it hard for those eight second time slips that you earned? You might have held a little bit back, but something tells me you pushed pretty hard to get those times. So why the extra weight when nothing has been even remotely close to proving all the theorectical racing. My guess is if the weights are put into effect as you have put forth, you will probably see a lot of 8 second 109 blocks and the Stage II's will be in the 9.10 to 9.40 range. Jusy MY opinion.

Ken, I agree with the Physicist comments. Yes, none of this has been proven that is why the rules/weights will be adjusted if needed. I know exactly what it takes to push a 109 TSM set up and what the drawbacks are in tuning vs performance. I know what the weaknesses are also. The stage engine takes those weaknesses out of the equation. It's not just the CI that you can gain. Not to go into too much detail, I'm sure you know from dealing with stage engines where you can gain an advantage with the current rules. I haven't followed the YB thread but I understand the concept. The 3 bolt 71 will be the limiter but the stage engines will allow the full potential of the 71 to be obtained where a 109 can't. That is why the stage engines will have added weight. I don't think we'll see any more 8 second 109s than there are today. (There was only one 8 second 109 pass in 2011, one. And it was .04 seconds into the 8s)

DATA: If you average all the #1 qualifying times for the 2011 TSM season, You only get 9.22 ET. That is the fastest qualifying pass made at all 5 races this year averaged out.

You can't judge the class on one car, you have to look at the avg for the class. The avg ET for the class is way less than 9.22. So if the stage cars are within that 9.10-9.40 range all this will make for great heads up racing that everyone can join in.

Again the turbo is the great equalizer, not cubic inches, not the tires, and not the car, not coil over shocks, or much of anything else for that matter. I guess I look at it kind of like the fox making all the rules for the hen house. I don't mean any disrespect to you or anybody else on here, but I just wanted to give my input for this new class since I was interested. If you want you can get my number from Joe or Dave if you have any further questions or clarification on anything i've said. I personally won't be diappointed if I don't run in the class and I will surely continue to watch from the sideline - thats if Fiscus doesn't have me to busy with his car.

Thanks for listening.............Ken Hagood

As far as the Fox/Hen comment, This is still a 109 block class always will be. So the 109 will get weight breaks.


Ken, thanks for your input. Now bring that car out and race!

 

[Ken H]

Hello again. I come in peace. Not trying to stir the pot too much.

Change is something that human nature tends to avoid.. It's programed into us from day one.



Thanks and I hope you decide to join us. What would keep your car from participating?

Coil overs and mini-tubs.

Ken, After all the discussions and doing some research I pulled back the Series II weights to the current AL/109. The point being is that we don't know how that combo will perform at this time. I can tell you that it's a good platform to start with if someone wants to try it out as Lonnie is doing. There will be a lot of custom work needed to make it work but the bottom end is very stout..

Understood.


Ken, I agree with the Physicist comments. Yes, none of this has been proven that is why the rules/weights will be adjusted if needed. I know exactly what it takes to push a 109 TSM set up and what the drawbacks are in tuning vs performance. I know what the weaknesses are also. The stage engine takes those weaknesses out of the equation. It's not just the CI that you can gain. Not to go into too much detail, I'm sure you know from dealing with stage engines where you can gain an advantage with the current rules. I haven't followed the YB thread but I understand the concept. The 3 bolt 71 will be the limiter but the stage engines will allow the full potential of the 71 to be obtained where a 109 can't. That is why the stage engines will have added weight. I don't think we'll see any more 8 second 109s than there are today. (There was only one 8 second 109 pass in 2011, one. And it was .04 seconds into the 8s)

DATA: If you average all the #1 qualifying times for the 2011 TSM season, You only get 9.22 ET. That is the fastest qualifying pass made at all 5 races this year averaged out.

You can't judge the class on one car, you have to look at the avg for the class. The avg ET for the class is way less than 9.22. So if the stage cars are within that 9.10-9.40 range all this will make for great heads up racing that everyone can join in.


If you didn't have to worry about breakage, how fast do you think a 109 tsm engine could be? You guys are pushing these things pretty hard. Which brings us back to Will's original statements that brought all this on, reliability.



As far as the Fox/Hen comment, This is still a 109 block class always will be. So the 109 will get weight breaks.


Ken, thanks for your input. Now bring that car out and race!

Then why even allow stg II's? Just keep it a 109 block class and go to a smaller turbo to limit et and destuction.


My thoughts were the turbo is truely the one and only limiting factor. The stg II should have a little more problem with the little turbo due to more space to fill, in other words the turbo will have a harder time filling all the extra space. I'll also bet the et's will still be the same.

 

[Mike E]

....
Then why even allow stg II's? Just keep it a 109 block class and go to a smaller turbo to limit et and destuction.
....

Two reasons.
1. A $1000+ crank and $1400 rods dont belong in a $300 block. I know you can get away with cheaper rods and crank. But after talking to k1 today, they don't have much in stock and who knows when they will order more. Import cranks are pretty much the same story.

2. 4 or 5 races a year hardly justify building building such an expensive car. Most everyone can race other local classes or other series with a 76 or bigger turbo and do so more often. A stock block won't allow that.

 

[Ken H]

Two reasons.
1. A $1000+ crank and $1400 rods dont belong in a $300 block. I know you can get away with cheaper rods and crank. But after talking to k1 today, they don't have much in stock and who knows when they will order more. Import cranks are pretty much the same story.

2. 4 or 5 races a year hardly justify building building such an expensive car. Most everyone can race other local classes or other series with a 76 or bigger turbo and do so more often. A stock block won't allow that.

Thank you Mr. Mean, you just brought out the one and only reason for stage blocks.....Reliability. Is't this what Will's original post was all about. BTW, I agree 100% with you on #1, however #2 has yet to be proven....you rarely here about Buicks running V-6's in other heads-up classes. I know we have done it some with Fiscus' car and so has Tony Gomes. Just saying.

I guess it all boils down to what I and probably some others have been trying to say, a stage block or aftermarket block does not and will not give you any more power. You are still going to run a 109 block hard and just deal with the breakage. I'll say it again, the turbo is the great equalizer. If there really is someone out there that is running a stage II with a 71 turbo and running a whole lot faster, then you might want to question wether it is a real TSM 71 or a custom turbo. Just my thoughts.

 

[tom robison]

Are the rules posted the final draft or are their still changes to be made?

 

[V6RACER]

Are the rules posted the final draft or are their still changes to be made?

Final rules are posted in TSM Sticky section.