ZDDP question

[A2000RICH]

Rich how about a Turbobuicks.com member deal on ZDDPplus?
I know Dennis has it for sale, I have been a customer of his for close to ten years and respect and appreciate his contributions to the Buick community and recieve his inner circle emails monthly.
No offense, but in my experience his "deals" are not really impressive.

Thanx

we might be able to do something----------i would think you might have to get permission of the board owners/sponsors---------i really don't try to push the stuff on here------i try to stick to information and facts ----------any thoughts on this let me know..........RC

 

[t-topflyer]

I had a long time GN Mechanic recommend Royal Purple Full Synthetic 5W-30 to me. Anyone familiar with the protection it may offer or the lack thereof?

 

[turbo nasty]

Rich good point. I would just contact some moderators and ask them about a group deal/becoming a vendor. Not sure on fees though, I am sure someone will chime in.

 

[GNX243]

Correct procedure?

I am not sure you are following the correct procedure for discounting ZDDPlus.
First, Kirban Performance Products is a supporter of this site. I realize just as you do that he is in business and has expenses and do not expect him to operate at a loss. Further, I do not know where you folks are obtaining the costs for mfg, & distributing ZDDPlus to say his price is no bargain. Do you know of another vendor who is offering it for less?
Secondly, there is a section for sale items on this site (frankly I find few bargains there). Occassionally I have read posts where someone offers to provide a product-such as a gps alarm system- at wholesale but I would think the correct location of the posting should be in the sale section.
Thirdly, every time I have gone to the mfg they have referred me to the local distributor where there is one. Occassionally the mfg provides a coupon or the distributor runs a loss leader (e.g. passes out a sample/offers an introductory price) to expose individuals to a new product and their services but that is done thru the distributor.
Although I have dealt with Dennis for over 17 years, I have no interest-financial or otherwise- in supporting him but feel he is the one who should be contacted (either by individuals or the mfg) to provide any offer on this site.

 

[turbo nasty]

I am not sure you are following the correct procedure for discounting ZDDPlus.
First, Kirban Performance Products is a supporter of this site. I realize just as you do that he is in business and has expenses and do not expect him to operate at a loss. Further, I do not know where you folks are obtaining the costs for mfg, & distributing ZDDPlus to say his price is no bargain. Do you know of another vendor who is offering it for less?
Secondly, there is a section for sale items on this site (frankly I find few bargains there). Occassionally I have read posts where someone offers to provide a product-such as a gps alarm system- at wholesale but I would think the correct location of the posting should be in the sale section.
Thirdly, every time I have gone to the mfg they have referred me to the local distributor where there is one. Occassionally the mfg provides a coupon or the distributor runs a loss leader (e.g. passes out a sample/offers an introductory price) to expose individuals to a new product and their services but that is done thru the distributor.
Although I have dealt with Dennis for over 17 years, I have no interest-financial or otherwise- in supporting him but feel he is the one who should be contacted (either by individuals or the mfg) to provide any offer on this site.

Procedure????
FWIW... Rich is the Guy that Dennis gets his ZDDP from so u cant get anycloser than that. Dennis is the middle man.
Rich is the Supplier if u will.

 

[Way2QWK]

I have finally decided on amsoil synthetic 10-40 oil. About $7.00 a quart. Still unsure on the gasoline blend or the 4 stroke motorcycle blend. Going to contact amsoil for their opinion. The research I have found on royal purple indicates it does not do well in wear testing. I did use it for two oil changes years ago and the motor never ran smoother with that oil.

 

[BlackMetal]

The research I have found on royal purple indicates it does not do well in wear testing.

Can you share this information. Some reading I did recently suggested just the OPPOSITE, in a wear test Royal Purple beat most of the competition.

 

[t-topflyer]

Can you share this information. Some reading I did recently suggested just the OPPOSITE, in a wear test Royal Purple beat most of the competition.

Below is the question I asked Royal Purple and the response I received. I have ordered some ZDDPlus, but now I am concerned about "over-additizing" with the addition of ZDDPlus to some oils, especially Royal Purple. Not sure what if any harm that could cause.


QUESTION BY ME I have an 87 Buick Grand National with the turbocharged 3.8 L. There has recently been a major concern in our community about the decline of ZDDP content in the oils on the market. As you probably know, when our cars came out new, API SF oil was the recommended oil, and contained adequate amounts of ZDDP which allowed for proper protection of these engines. Since then, ZDDP content has only declined. I had a local enthusiast recommend your brand oil to me. Recently a product called ZDDPlus has become available that is supposed to restore any oil back to factory specs. I would prefer not to have to supplement the oil. With that in mind, is there a way for me to find out if any of your oils contain the proper amounts of ZDDP to protect my engine so that I can have it all in one product? I did recently do an oil change with Royal Purple 5W-30 full synthetic in my car of interest. Could I get any information on the ZDDP content of that? thanks


RESPONSE BY ROYAL PURPLE REPRESENTATIVE



Thanks for your email.

For your Buick Grand National, all Royal Purple Motor Oils, from our street API Licensed Oils to the XPR Racing oils could be used as they all have superior antiwear properties and the added protection of the RP Synerlec Additive Technology in all of the products which gives Royal Purple's oils 4 times the film strength of other products.

Due to this performance - Royal Purple does not recommend the addition of any aftermarket additives to our products.

I am not familiar with ZDDPlus but one of the dangers of over additizing an oil is that you may effect the solubility of the oil (i.e., the ability of the oil to keep all the additives in solution) which could lead to additive dropout - which could drastically effect the performance of the oil.
Over additizing with ZDDP type components can also lead to exhaust deposits due to the higher metallic ash content......

Royal Purple 5W30 or 10W30 is API SL and has an excellent antiwear package to protect flat tappet applications.
The additive package content is the maximum allowed to still be API Licensed to the API SL Service Classification.
If you are looking for the most robust antiwear package, consider our XPR 5W30 oil, which would have roughly 160-17-% more antiwear additive than the API versions we sell.

Sincerely,

David


Royal Purple Inc
David Canitz
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, TX 77365
281.354.8600
281.354.7600 fax
713.725,7207 cell
dcanitz@royalpurple.com

 

[Way2QWK]

Royal Purple vs AMSOIL

synthetic oil comparison - Royal Purple Mobil 1 Castrol Redline Amsoil

Bob Is The Oil Guy: royal purple

thats all the links I have saved. spend 4 hours looking at multiple car and oil boards. The general consensus I found was Royal purple does not hold up well for wear. Amsoil has consistently ranked higher from what i have seen.

 

[t-topflyer]

Royal Purple vs AMSOIL

synthetic oil comparison - Royal Purple Mobil 1 Castrol Redline Amsoil

Bob Is The Oil Guy: royal purple

thats all the links I have saved. spend 4 hours looking at multiple car and oil boards. The general consensus I found was Royal purple does not hold up well for wear. Amsoil has consistently ranked higher from what i have seen.

All of those links look to be sponsored/funded by Amsoil so I would wonder if the conclusions can be taken as concrete evidence. We would really need a double-blind study without any affiliation to any company to come to get the "truth".

 

[Way2QWK]

I knew that would be the responce, thats all I could find for now. The oil drop.com site seems to be a good unbiased site on oil. Most people on that forum prefer amsoil to royal purple for the reasons I mentioned. Just from what I have heard going back 10 years, I have never heard one bad thing about amsoil products.

 

[t-topflyer]

I knew that would be the responce, thats all I could find for now. The oil drop.com site seems to be a good unbiased site on oil. Most people on that forum prefer amsoil to royal purple for the reasons I mentioned. Just from what I have heard going back 10 years, I have never heard one bad thing about amsoil products.

Rich, thanks for the links just the same. I would say either one is probably a quality product since Buick owners have had positive experiences with both brands.

 

[A2000RICH]

guys---------i have recently spent a lot of time doing research into the oil licensing programs that are supervised and authorized by the API/ISLAC-------there is so much nonsense, bias and brand loyalty on the subject of oil that asking most folks about oil is similar to asking about religion or politics---------and i have come to feel like asking the oil companies about their product formulations is a total waste of time---------don't forget that many of them are the same "oil companies" that we have come to love, respect and thank for our great gasoline prices----------yes i do agree that some of the smaller independents are not in that same league but i liken most of them to politicians--------their motives are questionable weather they are at the highest federal level or our local town council---------one thing is for sure------everybody makes the best oil and everybody has just the thing that our cars need--------NOT-----------I have no doubt that the royal purple representative means well but he’s towing the party line--------just what is RP Synerlec????-------in the last two weeks I have read over 4000 pages of API/ISLAC/ASTM test methods, licensing requirements, and certification sequences---------I have done this to educate myself on the subject and to try to understand just what is happening to our oils----------- I have not come across a single reference to RP Synerlec---------and I can find literally thousands of references to ZDDP-----------ZDDP has been the single most accepted EP additive and has been universally used by virtually every oil company for decades--------nothing has yet to come along that can be shown to take its place------- what has happened in the last 15 years makes this extremely clear----------in order to comply with ZDDP being reduced the manufacturers have had to literally change the design of engines----------while I will certainly admit that roller cams are superior to flat tappet cams they are also much more expensive and the manufacturers would have never replaced a simple oil additive with more expensive engine parts if there were any other alternative---------- that being said i have begun to uncover some really interesting stuff and i am totally convinced that any of them could care less about older cars----------in the next couple weeks I am going to cover some of the more interesting stuff that I think everyone that has any doubts about caring for their older car should consider and read at least to the point of understanding-----------it is going to take some time and I have to spread this out due to my own time constraints but bear with me it will be worth it----------I also want to mention that all my facts will be documented with credible references---------if I fail to make them clear please don’t hesitate to question me before we get too far along----------and since this is a preliminary attempt at organizing this data you may expect some of the stuff to be not exactly in the most logical order---------when I finally get done with all of this in intend to write a good article and make it available to some of the mags---------hopefully a few of them will be willing to publish it in spite of the fact that they have oil companies for advertisers----------- first for some background------The engine oil grading system was started about 1911 by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). Initially they attempted to define basic characteristics like specific gravity, flash points, and viscosity. For over a decade they only had a single spec for motor oil known as “Spec # 26.” In 1923 they attempted to broaden this spec to include a range of actual measured oil properties. Consideration as to actual oil performance didn’t occur till about 1947 with the API (American Petroleum Institute). At that time a grading system was incorporated based on the intended application of the oil. Motor oil “M” was assigned three grades. They were ML (regular or light duty) MM (premium or medium duty) and MS (severe or heavy duty). ML was straight mineral oil, MM contained limited oxidation inhibitors, and MS had oxidation inhibitors, dispersants and detergents. A similar classification that substituted the “M” with a “C” was added in 1952 for diesel oil. It wasn’t until 1969 that the API (American Petroleum Institute) the ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) and the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) got together to form a “performance” based system of rating oils. This system also used two major categories for oil classification. They were “S” for service (intended for spark ignited gasoline engines) and “C” for commercial (intended for diesel engines). This system is the classification system that we use today and are so familiar with. Currently we are at SM but before we get to where we are I want to continue with how we got here. The first designations assigned were SA through SD. These assignments were retroactive in that the oils had already been available. SA was assigned to what was marketed up to about 1930 and was just straight mineral oil with no additives. SB was assigned to the oils that were marketed up to the early 60’s and would have been described by the MM class of oil till about 1970. The classifications SC and SD were assigned to the MS class of oils that covered the years from the early 60’s to early 70’s. As needs for better oils arose improved formulations were assigned later alphabetical values. The first such oil- SE was formulated to deal with viscosity problems in the early 70’s. SF oil was formulated for improved engine wear performance and utilized generous amounts of ZDDP. SG oil was formulated to deal with problems of oxidation and sludge formation in mid 80’s engines due to the CAFÉ (US Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards that started in 1978. To arrive at oil ratings several types of tests are done. These tests are tightly controlled by the API and well defined by the ASTM. Some of these tests are actual engine tests where an engine of certain specs is carefully built and dyno tested according to a strict regimen. That would duplicate the conditions of both stop and go driving and continued high speed highway driving. Afterward the engine is torn down and both the engine and oil are examined for condition. When one of these tests is defined virtually every oil brand is tested with the exact same type of engine. One of the things that caught my attention was ASTM D 5533-98 Standard Test Method for Evaluation of Automotive Engine Oils in the Sequence IIIE Spark-Ignition Engine. As far as I can tell this particular test originated in the early 90’s and appears to have been in use till approx 02 where it was specified for use in qualifying SH / ISLAC GF-1 and SJ / ILSAC GF-2 oil For cam/lifter wear. Under apparatus section 6.4 the test engine specified is a 1986/87 3.8-L 231 Buick engine! That’s right, the specified engine was a “109” block as can be clearly seen in fig 14 of the ASTM manual. Apparently GM continued to make these engines available for quiet a while after they were discontinued for general use. These could be ordered by API licensees from the Central Parts Distributor as a “STP” special test part. When these engines were no longer available they were replaced in Sequence IIIG and IIIF by the 3800 Buick V-6 for qualifying SL and SM oil. There is some real interesting stuff in these reports and tests and I promise two things when its over-------- its going to be interesting and you are probably not going to trust oil salesmen ever again------------stay tuned………..RC

 

[t-topflyer]

I may have missed this somewhere along the way as there is so much information to tread through here; but at this point I find myself asking 3 questions:

1. Is there an ideal oil or oils to use along with ZDDPlus as an additive?
2. Which oils should we decrease the amounts of ZDDPlus that we should add, and if so, by how much?
3. Are there any oil or oils we should stay away from when using ZDDPlus?

 

[t-topflyer]

--- that asking most folks about oil is similar to asking about religion or politics---------and i have come to feel like asking the oil companies about their product formulations is a total waste of time---------don't forget that many of them are the same "oil companies" that we have come to love, respect and thank for our great gasoline prices----------yes i do agree that some of the smaller independents are not in that same league but i liken most of them to politicians--------their motives are questionable weather they are at the highest federal level or our local town council---------one thing is for sure------everybody makes the best oil and everybody has just the thing that our cars need--------NOT----------- There is some real interesting stuff in these reports and tests and I promise two things when its over-------- its going to be interesting and you are probably not going to trust oil salesmen ever again------------stay tuned………..RC

Along the same lines, I respect you RC, your commitment to this issue, your experience and love for these cars. I also understand that you know this topic inside and out. However, just for my peace of mind, how is it different asking you about ZDDPlus vs asking an oil company representative about their own oil? The reason I ask is that I believe you or one of your companies is responsible for the manufacturing, distributing, marketing, etc of ZDDPlus correct? You said in one of your earlier posts that you are a business person.....With all these things in mind, and after the statement above how can I be confident that this situation is any different from what you indicate the other companies would do?......... "eveybody makes the best oil and everybody has just the thing our cars need"

 

[Jerryl]

Subscribed

 

[A2000RICH]

Along the same lines, I respect you RC, your commitment to this issue, your experience and love for these cars. I also understand that you know this topic inside and out. However, just for my peace of mind, how is it different asking you about ZDDPlus vs asking an oil company representative about their own oil? The reason I ask is that I believe you or one of your companies is responsible for the manufacturing, distributing, marketing, etc of ZDDPlus correct? You said in one of your earlier posts that you are a business person.....With all these things in mind, and after the statement above how can I be confident that this situation is any different from what you indicate the other companies would do?......... "eveybody makes the best oil and everybody has just the thing our cars need"

t-top---------the difference is simple-----at least to me-----my businesses have nothing to do with oil, cars or anything related------if i never sell any zddp to anyone its not gonna change my lifestyle one bit-------my cars are my hobby------ i have what i believe i need to take care of them and i have made it available to everyone else---------this might beg the question why don't i give it away???-----it takes time to bottle, label, ship etc and i really dont' care to spend my free time doing that--------i don't know anyone else that wants to do it either for nothing---------and then there is the sales and distribution that requires compensation-------and like most products nearly all the money goes to those that market and sell--------BUT without those cost systems in place no goods or services ever get to any end users-----it does explain why the product is priced the way it is-------for 9 dollars you get one bottle that is much less than the cost of the only other product that is like it- ie GM EOS since the one little bottle has the same concentration as two bottles of EOS-----------as for the product???--------i didn't invent it, I didn't spend millions of dollars analyzing how it protects engines like the SAE did, i didn't determine it was necessary for our cars in the first place, i had nothing to do with removing or reducing it from virtually every motor oil that is now available--------i just found a quality source and stashed enough of it away while it is still available--------if that doesn't give you enough confidence to believe me then so be it---------look at the oil companies and how they just simply dance around the formulations in their oil-----try to find someone at Mobil that will confirm what i found out just a few weeks ago ie that Mobil 1 10w-30 has ZERO zddp in it!-------and Valvoline 10w-30 too!!!-------i do understand trade secrets but this is critical for our cars--------there was a time when food displayed little info about what was in it--------at least now there are laws that require notice of certain things like fat, sugars, sodium, vitamins etc------and they also require ingredients listed in order of quantity----------you can bet the food companies didn't like this when it was first legislated but i for one am glad they do it---------does that mean that most folks read it????heck no but for those in the know that want to protect their bodies and live helathy it has value--------likewise i would like to see some disclosure on this issue of oil contents----------i am the first to admit that the newer grades of oil are better than they have ever been but that doesn't seem to apply to older cars------------if you don't get where i am coming from i just hope you find an oil supplier that cares about your TR more than i do...............RC

 

[t-topflyer]

Fair enough RC, and I am excited about what will continue to unfold with your research and this product. In the meantime, I have a couple questions:

1. Is there an ideal oil or oils to use along with ZDDPlus as an additive?
2. Which oils should we decrease the amounts of ZDDPlus that we should add, and if so, by how much?
3. Are there any oil or oils we should stay away from when using ZDDPlus?

 

[A2000RICH]

Fair enough RC, and I am excited about what will continue to unfold with your research and this product. In the meantime, I have a couple questions:

1. Is there an ideal oil or oils to use along with ZDDPlus as an additive?
2. Which oils should we decrease the amounts of ZDDPlus that we should add, and if so, by how much?
3. Are there any oil or oils we should stay away from when using ZDDPlus?

My personal opinion (not based on research) is that Mobil 1 is at the top of the food chain when it comes to oil-------they have always appeared to lead the pack as far as i am concerned and i have used it since i first read about it in the late 70's---------i did not ever buy the line about extended change intervals that Mobil 1 used to suggest------- until i got into TR's i always drove caddys and ferraris and i was always concerned with warranties--------i never saw where there was an exception for synthetic oil in the owners manuals--------for my CTS-V GM suggests Mobil 1 and that speaks to me for instant credibility--------since it has a corvette engine that would seem natural since the corvettes have suggested Mobil 1 for quite some time-------i still use it in my gnx's and nicer TR's since i feel it has everything it needs except for the recently removed zddp----------while it may not have any ZDDP i feel i have that covered---------in my daily driver cars (GN's) i have always used Valvoline probably cause "more mechanics use Valvoline than any other brand"---------just kidding--------i started using Vavoline since i got my first car--------i have the fix for Vavoline SM also so i have no reason to quit-----------i know there are lots of good oils out there and probably 99% of them have a history of protecting cars just fine-------i also know there are a few really good oils as well and most of them claim to better Mobil 1--------i could possibly believe this if their marketing and advertising claims were more refined and BELIVEABLE--------putting testimonials on line from idiot customers that claim 10% and 20% mileage increases cause they changed their oil really turns me off to anything they have to say about anything-------they know its not true so why do they do it???--------me??-------i am a cheepo-------to me i like to go to the discount auto parts store or wal-mart and buy reputable brand oil at a discount---------Valvoline at less than 2 bucks a qt and Mobil 1 at a few dollars a qt just makes sense----------i just can't bring myself to pay 50+ dollars for a oil change----------Valvoline 10w-30 and a bottle of ZddPlus gets you in for about $20 ---------its thrifty, convenient and you can find it in virtually any shopping center in the country---------it just makes sense to me--------what would i avoid??? i would avoid any oil that the manufacturer says "may not work" with a couple ounces of a simple additive thats been in most quality oil for decades--------as for dosage--------properly formulated oil rated SM will have NO MORE than a known amount of ZDDP---------a single bottle of ZddPlus will put a single TR oil change right about where SF oil would have been when your car was new..................RC

 

[t-topflyer]

I will agree that $50 oil changes are painful to the pocket book. Heck even $40 is. Buying Mobil 1 from a local parts store along with filter usually puts me right at $40. So, Valvoline + ZDDPlus at next oil change for me.