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009's all done @110% Duty Cycle? (T+ tuning)

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ok...

...I'm very interested in what it cost and the tuning required to run 24 psi on pump fuel w/o alky(i do it with alky right now)..so what's your price bruce??

I'm dead serious. :eek:


...and would you consider marketing what you have discovered...something tells me, this infomation/techniques would be a gold mine..

Alex
 
he still hasn't told us how much power that setup is making....think I wanna know that before signing up........

ie put it on a dyno or a drag strip
 
Re: ok...

Originally posted by blackshoebox
.so what's your price bruce??


I don't do this for money.
If you poke around some, you'll see I've been writting about tuning, and proms for years, now. This is something, I just do for grins, and a few friends.
 
Originally posted by azgn
...think I wanna know that before signing up........
ie put it on a dyno or a drag strip

There is nothing to sign up for, all I've tried to do is explain how things, actually work.

A dyno is nothing but math, you can abstract the info., with the info I've given, if you're into numbers.

I'm not selling anything, and I could give a tinkers twist about beating my car up at the drags. Your the one that wants to get more out his car, and I've told ya how to do. The info is for you to take or leave. You don't want to use it, well that's fine, I could care less. If you want to challenge the info., that's fine to, again I could care less.

Didya read the Static Thread info?.
 
Originally posted by Nigel
Injector duty cycle is determined by the full cycle of a four stroke engine, or the time it takes to turn 720 degrees of crank rotation. So if your injector was operating at 114% percent the next open and close event would occur in the next cycle. Therefore it is impossible to get more than 100% duty cycle for 1 cycle of the engine.

Yep, 100% true, for as far as you go, but you're missing a key element.
 
Originally posted by MJRWOOD
Anyways....
Last night I spent some more time tuning the car. I shifted my philosophy a little and instead of getting all worried about pushing my 009 injectors past static duty cycle, I said the hell with... let 'em have it and let 'em have it good and see what she'll do.
So I went ahead and adjusted MAF WOT on the T+ from 0% to +4% rich and made a run. The result? Injector duty cycles approaching 114% and an engine that was much happier with O2's in the high 780's. Then went a little further.... Adjusted MAF WOT to +6% rich and made another run. This time injector duty cycle hit almost 120% and O2's remained near 800 for the whole run to 120 MPH.
A little irony: In this case, a blatant lie to my ECM has resulted in going faster
;)
This brings to light something I had not thought too much about previously. Lots of folks here have stated that at 100% your injectors are on "all the time". I don't think so. In fact... I know they are on only for the duration of the pulsewidth. Then, in the interest of preserving the injector drivers and coils, they are shut off and get some time to cool down before the next shot. The injector duty cycle is the ratio of these two times (on time : off time) relative to some max reference time which the factory deemed "100%" for the OE injectors and any given engine speed.
Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that huge injector on-times are a good thing. Tends to drag out the number of crank degrees during which your injector is still squirting. IMO I still need larger injectors and lower injector duty cycles. At least now I know the fuel system is capable of delivering the needed fuel for my engine

Care to think a little more about what's going on?.
If you hook a DC meter into things, 100% is still 100%.
So what is really changing?.
 
Originally posted by TurboJim

I've been thru this before, and was told I was wrong...but...tools like DS, I know theyre SUPPOSED to display accurate PW, but heres my dilemma:

Yep, it will happen every time, when you lie to the ecm.
If you change the inj constant with nothing else, then the ecm is still calculating to get a desired AFR. So yes the PW changes.

It's this very fact that gets people off on tangents, and tail chasing.

If you want to change the fuel curve the best way is to change the fuel curve. You have the MAF tables + Scalers. PE vs CT, PE vs TPS, and PE vs RPM. For lil changes you can fudge things, a little, in other areas, changing the injector size to move things around IMO, can be lots of trouble.

Look at my other post where I list a 90% DC and at 12.5:1 when the engine runs out of fuel, look real close, this is almost a gimme.........
 
yes Bruce, I read the static thread and that makes sense....what does not make sense is tha ability to make meaningful HP with pump gas on these cars......It means very little to avoid detonation at 24 lbs boost and pump gas if the damn thing is only making 250 hp....at least from my perspective

so, if you are making power with that setup, how much??

simple question.....
 
Boost gauges can be off a bit too from a good reference gauge.

I would like to see the dyno. run too. :)
 
Originally posted by azgn
yes Bruce, I read the static thread and that makes sense....what does not make sense is tha ability to make meaningful HP with pump gas on these cars......It means very little to avoid detonation at 24 lbs boost and pump gas if the damn thing is only making 250 hp....at least from my perspective

so, if you are making power with that setup, how much??

simple question.....

Same answer as several posts ago, there's nothing for sale.
It would take a real talent to make 250 HP at 24 PSI with a 3.8L anything.
I've said, 11.8:1, 55#ers, 80% duty cycle, 24 PSI, and a base fuel pressure of 42 PSI. With 22d timing it would be hard to get this AFR and fuel consumption and not make power.
Jim touched on the chamber work, but there aren't any thermal barriers in this engine. But, I have alot of work in the intake, so my distribution is second only to a sheetmetal manifold, but I was running 24 before that, just that I'm making more power now, with less risk of detonation.
 
Originally posted by salvageV6
Boost gauges can be off a bit too from a good reference gauge.
I would like to see the dyno. run too. :)


Just so happens Ken had his guage calibrated, and mine also pretty matched a 3 bar MAP.
And again, I say I have better things to do with my car then beat it up on a dyno or strip.

You have two choices, just ignore my stuff, or try and figure things out, to make more HP on your own.
 
I guess I'll just have to ignore you Bruce because you won't document anything you have done with real world results that anybody can relate to....a shame, because obviously you have a lot of good info

I have no problem making power with my car and I can prove unequivicaly how much power it makes......

you don't have to beat on your car....just go to the drag strip and make a WOT pass and determine what speed your car runs.....one can extrapolate the HP based on weight fairly accurately

leave it in "D" and step on the gas for 1320 feet
 
Several months ago Bruce reported making a couple of 105 mph passes. So far as I've read his combo is the same now as then, except for the maf table reworking which should not affect wot fueling. He's lightened his car some, removing the power steering and a/c (at that time, now also the heater box). At that time he mentioned running 23-24 psi boost in 3rd gear but did not report the timing. A friend who spoke with him told me that Bruce told him it was 16 deg or so, which is a long way from 22 deg. That's all stuff basically from the archives of here and gnttype. Bruce, if I've misstated anything I'm sorry.

My car is a crate longblock that was balanced and blueprinted, with main studs, and which now has 100,000 miles on it. No port matching, bowl work, or anything. I don't even think it got a 3 angle valve job. I added fuel pump and injectors to support the airflow, ATR headers (which hurt spoolup even back with the stock turbo and are probably still hurting the et but might be helping the mph a little), early CAS V2 frontmount, PTE54 turbo, THDP 3" dp for the atr headers, ATR dual 2.5" exhaust with first PitBull and now UltraFlow mufflers, and the usual little stuff like 160 stat, adj. fp reg, modified D5 2800 stall converter, rebuilt trans, original 262,000 mile rear with posi (still leaves two black stripes :-)). I make my own chips, run 20 deg of timing at wot in all gears, and do not lock the tcc at wot. I live in Maryland which gets RFGII year round, and run Exxon 93 octane with no alcohol or water (or propane :-)) injection. I can run 23-24 psi boost in 1st and 2nd gear, and 22 or so in 3rd. I have Nitto drag radials and rr airbag, but the converter hurts so that the boost isn't up until almost 4000 rpm in 1st gear so my 60's are in the 1.85-2.0 range. Two weekends ago it was over 85 deg at 9 pm and I ran a 12.48 at 108.5 mph. Last fall it was 65 deg or so and I got my all time best of 12.18 at 110.48. Two years ago with the same combo I ran several 109.5-110.3 mph passes on cool evenings and 107-108 mph on summer afternoons, but didn't make it back to the track much for the next year or so. With a good converter and ported heads if I ever get them installed I expect to get told to add a roll bar, on 93 octane, this fall when it cools back off. I did add a RJC power plate, with the boost turned up so that I was getting 1-2 deg of retard on the 2-3 shift 5 minutes before the install, and saw no difference in retard 5 minutes afterwards, or et (but the et's were on different days). Oh, my car with me in it is heavy - 4014 lbs at one track and 4040 lbs at Englishtown, with trailer hitch and trunk-o-junk that I call racing trim :-). That weight and 110.5 mph equates to about 415 average rwhp.

The key is the big turbo, which is much more efficient than a TE44, the frontmount, and tuning. When I went from at TE34 to the PTE54 I made more power at the same boost and could run 3-4 psi more boost with no knock (at the cost of spoolup and the need for much more converter to get et's consistent with the mph). Bruce is running a 60 turbo (TA, I think), and may have a home-installed powerstroke frontmount by now, or may still be using the stock intercooler (if he is, that's remarkable; if not that may be how he went from 16 deg to 22 deg advance).

I'm not posting this to defend Bruce - he doesn't need my help for that. I just wanted to remind people of what Bruce has posted and described in the past.
 
ok, I get the picture.....basically tuning to the fuel and that's fine( I guess we all do that)......but I would point out at 24 lbs boost, my car runs 125 (on race gas and it weighs 3700+)

I thought he had a way to extract the same kind of performance from 93 octane as race gas and that ain't gonna happen.....I do admire what he is getting out of it....imagine applying those techniques to some good gas!
 
Originally posted by ijames
Several months ago Bruce reported making a couple of 105 mph passes. So far as I've read his combo is the same now as then, except for the maf table reworking which should not affect wot fueling. He's lightened his car some, removing the power steering and a/c (at that time, now also the heater box). At that time he mentioned running 23-24 psi boost in 3rd gear but did not report the timing. A friend who spoke with him told me that Bruce told him it was 16 deg or so, which is a long way from 22 deg. That's all stuff basically from the archives of here and gnttype. Bruce, if I've misstated anything I'm sorry..

Those times were with the red tops, and almost 2 years ago, and using one of the econo hydralic roller cams. Yes, back then I was running 16d. I had done the chamber work, but was still using the stock intake. The first time I do believe was still even a draw thru MAF. While the A/C is gone, it still has P/S, though no P/B.

I have been out with the car the two times, the trap speeds were 107-108. Once sans helmet, so I had to sand bag to stay in the 14s, and the second time with a set of slicks that were slightly softer then granite. Both times I was physically ill from the effort, and the cars poor performance was due to me, not the car.
And with rear discs, you just know the 60s aren't going to be any good.

With the 55s, reworked plenum, calibrated blow thru MAF, and eDIST, it's hardly the same car.

What you stated was correct at one time.
If you look at featured cars at the GN site you can see the trim the car was in at the track.
 
Originally posted by azgn
ok, I get the picture.....basically tuning to the fuel and that's fine( I guess we all do that)......but I would point out at 24 lbs boost, my car runs 125 (on race gas and it weighs 3700+)
I thought he had a way to extract the same kind of performance from 93 octane as race gas and that ain't gonna happen.....I do admire what he is getting out of it....imagine applying those techniques to some good gas!

If you'd waited for my reply you'd have seen that was with red tops, and Oops the 107s were at 18 PSI, but yes on 93.
Mines 3725 with me in it.

While others seem to have problems with detonation, it's a non-issue with my setup.
In other words, I don't have the requirement for octane like you do. ie i can run on the street in track mode. One little note, I run ALOT less timing in cruise mode, so as to keep the piston dome chamber temps down so when I do load the motor down, there isn't alread a lot of heat present, so i don't have to run alot of fuel for chamber cooling.
 
Quote:"changing the injector size to move things around IMO, can be lots of trouble."

Bruce, sorry to barge in on this thread..but..when you tell your ecm the injector constant is ..lets say 29 for the sake of arguments ..which is for 50 lbs injectors..and the car runs rich throughtout..why can t setting the the constant to 28 or 27 be used to lean the whole range out? Or lets say it runs great but has a high static fuel pressure to run this..why not increase the constant and decrease the fuel pressure..And I would pressume fuel pressure in the 37-45 lbs range would be normal numbers.

Point is if the 009's are being run at a high static fuel pressure,like 50 lbs...it would appear that most fuel pumps will work better at 65 lbs vs 75 lbs..Or in the case of 009's go into the PE fuel trim vs RPM and add fuel up top.

Just learning here..
 
Originally posted by azgn
ok, I get the picture.....basically tuning to the fuel and that's fine( I guess we all do that)......but I would point out at 24 lbs boost, my car runs 125 (on race gas and it weighs 3700+)

I thought he had a way to extract the same kind of performance from 93 octane as race gas and that ain't gonna happen.....I do admire what he is getting out of it....imagine applying those techniques to some good gas!

Tuning to the fuel is it exactly. There's no doubt that the same combination with higher octane and more timing and more boost would make more power.
 
If he is making 415hp (or whatever) on 93, imagine what could be made on race fuel? Can you say 35psi at 30*? <grin>
 
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