Believe me. It's the guys that actually get dirty and get into these units after hard use that know the real story.why ??? just guys giving first hand info and of course "opinions"
200-4R durability
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This thread and the last few related to the sales has resulted in 8 transmission sales .Thanks for everyones support and confidence in my product.Anyone else in need of a trans let me know,ill do the right thing.This money is funding the planetary gear project,the gearset will be the next addition to the 2004rs growth.
well we were inside these trannys after beatings on an off the track. The way we look at it is look at the abuse its taking at its power level .. it's taking it
:biggrin:Dave Poppe
I believe he was deep into the 10's.
How fast was this car in the early 90s you speak of Ttype6? I mean it could have been an 11.0 car. That was a fast TR back then. Not to take anything away from any of the builders but some are cloudy on the price when it comes to cores and shipping. Some push the billet parts because they see the cars putting out alot of torque break the stock and hardened parts. That way, when the phone rings, the chance of hearing a person on the other end ticked because their car won't move after spending over $2000 is minimal.
So... If can run faster that 10.50 and weigh over 3600lbs the billet parts should be in there. In the 11s...your gambling, without them. In the 9's... you have spent enough money to get there so its a Full Built 200 or a TH400 in there anyway, so I'm not talking to ya
I believe he was deep into the 10's.
So you never split the splines on the OD carrier or the OD ring gear? Never lost the intermediate shaft???well we were inside these trannys after beatings on an off the track. The way we look at it is look at the abuse its taking at its power level .. it's taking it
been there an done it.. ya I have a wall of broken parts.
BUT that was with stock stuff.. The new stuff out now will help it to live .. If it breaks ...FIX IT !! 
bird
Member
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- Feb 20, 2003
- Messages
- 432
Chris, i have a customer/friend with an 8 sec capable combination, stage motor, 88 turbo, etc... full weight gn. The car will be used primarily on the street but will see occasional track duty(5-6 times a season). This guy loves his od. He has a 400 tranny for it already (vic richards little brute)but much rather use the 200. Will your #2004R/2PSCTB live behind this car or are we asking too much of the little tranny that could?
David Husek
Turbo Buick Performance
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2007
- Messages
- 911
Its always fun to check my inbox and see all the replies and what direction a thread has taken.
To answer your question, here are a few documented E.T.'s of cars in the early to mid 90's using transmissions built by Turbo Buick Performance, all the builds used stock borg bands and clutches, except blue plates in direct.
Red Armstrong ........10.20 and faster documented
Mannie Ecker ..........10.20 documnted
Dave Wicks Wife ......10.52 documented, well over 300 passes, kicked out of every track in florida, first page article in GSCA
Frank Parvin ............10.20 documented
Dave Poppe ..............9.99 documented, 10.20's average
And many more......
Since my non-billet re-builds can run this fast without problems, running them with our new line of billet parts will make them extremly stout.
Spoke to Frank Parvin earlier, whom is also well respected in the buick community. He said contact him, he will verify times posted and the performance and reliability of my builds.
blackstallion
New Member
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- Jul 7, 2003
- Messages
- 190
these transmissions are funny my freinds 200 in his buick which was stock with the a ta-49 went down slipping and eventually losing all gears while my 200 in my gn clone is stone stock with a 700 filter,and a tranny cooler has handled many 150 hp shots of nitrous and am spraying a mild 454 bbc has trapped at 122 mph in the 1/4 this tranny has never failed me its on borrowed time for sure but i good condition stock one can go tens how many times?????Not alot.My car has not hit tens yet poor 60ft and traction maybe thats why is still alive.But i plan on pulling the tranny and getting rebuilt
That's what I was trying to find out...about when the stock trans would bust....would it make it to the 11's in the 1/4?
TURBOPOWERED68
David
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- Jan 31, 2006
- Messages
- 8,819
i hope to be testing mines in the mid 11's at 4000 Pounds
In 2001 3800lbs (The GM high tech car) in TSO class at the nationals we seen Rob Raymers car run 9.80s made 40 passes all week. Car was sold and went even faster with new owner for 4 more years no maintenance. Since 2001 we have had 2004Rs go as fast as 9.34@148 all season long. Mid nines done by many cars over the last 9 years. Yes they can go deep in the 9s. We have proven it can be done for 9 plus years. THE CALIBRATION has been there. No new developments no wheel to reinvent.
I don't see 9's being an issue with a properly built 200-4R.
I've got several units living LONG lives in the bottom to mid 10's.
Those are the fastest I know of to date. One was built 4-5 yrs ago and I just found out about it several months ago.
Doing it without billet parts...
It's possible but stupid to try IMO.
The parts are reasonably priced and with the cost of fluid being what it is now, ONE R&R to fix a broken fwd drum and you are 1/5th of the way to buying the drum in just fluid, not counting a tow, labor, etc.
I've seen broken fwd drums come out of completely stock BRF cores with 40K miles on them. The one I've seen was from a high 11 second car, original trans, broke pulling up an inclined driveway. Barely above idle...
Calibration....
The calibration I was using 4-5 years ago that was capable of 10s or better is still just as capable.
However there is nothing wrong with improving the program.
IMO the WOT shifts were PERFECT back then, they left nothing to be desired.
A fast positive shift that obviously was letting the clutches stay alive.
I never really cared for the part throttle shifts though.
When you cut your teeth on TH400's you get accustomed to a certain shift quality. One that is clean at light throttle, crisp at part throttle, and FIRM at WOT.
The 200-4R just didn't have that.
One reason is that it is a synchronized shift. Much harder than a clutch over clutch. All the builders here are aware of that.
Another reason IMO is the dual feed mod that some of us prefer.
It either causes a bind up at part throttle with great WOT, or you can get rid of the bind up and keep the perfect WOT, but you get a very slightly lazy 2-3 at light throttle.
I mean VERY SLIGHTLY lazy.
It's not something most customers would even notice or complain about, because let's face it, these car's don't see a bunch of time at 1/4 throttle or less.
But a picky builder will notice it, will spend some time trying to improve it, and a few seperator plates later may have it all figured out or may not.
I personally played with the 2-3 accumulator orifices, the 3rd feed size, band release orifice, checkball/no checkball, plugged/not plugged.
I did some testing for Chris at CK 2-3 yrs ago using some ideas he had and wanted independent feedback.
I was impressed because he had fixed the slight laziness and cleaned up the shift at all throttle angles with a minor calibration change.
Chris has spent some time developing his calibration, like I'm sure every builder here has.
However the difference is,
he has posted MOST of the information here for the masses.
He hasn't just came on here and told everyone to PM him, or say he's been doing it for decades now.
I have no issue with a builder keeping calibration secrets to themselves.
That is hard earned information that only those here who build these things day in and day out REALLY understand.
I've seen most of the calibrations. I've bought Bruce's kit, I've bought TransGo's, I've bought Art Carrs, I've seen TCI's, I've bought Chris's, I've talked to most of the big names on here and exchanged notes.
There are some different methods to building them and definitely some different calibrations (although most are more similar than many of the builders would like to admit).
There are too many successful builders on here for any one builder to claim they are the only builder who has THE "calibration".
I also don't see an issue with improving what you have that works.
I could have stuck with the same calibration I used 5 yrs ago that worked, but I feel I'm sending out a better unit now than I used to. Even if it's just a very minor shift feel improvement at light throttle.
I've been doing some further testing recently trying out some other changes since we have been using a test car on all the 200-4R builds. It gets interesting at times
I've got several units living LONG lives in the bottom to mid 10's.
Those are the fastest I know of to date. One was built 4-5 yrs ago and I just found out about it several months ago.
Doing it without billet parts...
It's possible but stupid to try IMO.
The parts are reasonably priced and with the cost of fluid being what it is now, ONE R&R to fix a broken fwd drum and you are 1/5th of the way to buying the drum in just fluid, not counting a tow, labor, etc.
I've seen broken fwd drums come out of completely stock BRF cores with 40K miles on them. The one I've seen was from a high 11 second car, original trans, broke pulling up an inclined driveway. Barely above idle...
Calibration....
The calibration I was using 4-5 years ago that was capable of 10s or better is still just as capable.
However there is nothing wrong with improving the program.
IMO the WOT shifts were PERFECT back then, they left nothing to be desired.
A fast positive shift that obviously was letting the clutches stay alive.
I never really cared for the part throttle shifts though.
When you cut your teeth on TH400's you get accustomed to a certain shift quality. One that is clean at light throttle, crisp at part throttle, and FIRM at WOT.
The 200-4R just didn't have that.
One reason is that it is a synchronized shift. Much harder than a clutch over clutch. All the builders here are aware of that.
Another reason IMO is the dual feed mod that some of us prefer.
It either causes a bind up at part throttle with great WOT, or you can get rid of the bind up and keep the perfect WOT, but you get a very slightly lazy 2-3 at light throttle.
I mean VERY SLIGHTLY lazy.
It's not something most customers would even notice or complain about, because let's face it, these car's don't see a bunch of time at 1/4 throttle or less.
But a picky builder will notice it, will spend some time trying to improve it, and a few seperator plates later may have it all figured out or may not.
I personally played with the 2-3 accumulator orifices, the 3rd feed size, band release orifice, checkball/no checkball, plugged/not plugged.
I did some testing for Chris at CK 2-3 yrs ago using some ideas he had and wanted independent feedback.
I was impressed because he had fixed the slight laziness and cleaned up the shift at all throttle angles with a minor calibration change.
Chris has spent some time developing his calibration, like I'm sure every builder here has.
However the difference is,
he has posted MOST of the information here for the masses.
He hasn't just came on here and told everyone to PM him, or say he's been doing it for decades now.
I have no issue with a builder keeping calibration secrets to themselves.
That is hard earned information that only those here who build these things day in and day out REALLY understand.
I've seen most of the calibrations. I've bought Bruce's kit, I've bought TransGo's, I've bought Art Carrs, I've seen TCI's, I've bought Chris's, I've talked to most of the big names on here and exchanged notes.
There are some different methods to building them and definitely some different calibrations (although most are more similar than many of the builders would like to admit).
There are too many successful builders on here for any one builder to claim they are the only builder who has THE "calibration".
I also don't see an issue with improving what you have that works.
I could have stuck with the same calibration I used 5 yrs ago that worked, but I feel I'm sending out a better unit now than I used to. Even if it's just a very minor shift feel improvement at light throttle.
I've been doing some further testing recently trying out some other changes since we have been using a test car on all the 200-4R builds. It gets interesting at times
Hi Jake,
The 10 second trans and the 9.50 unit are two completely different units. The same calibration typically does not work for both units. Anyone can get the std feed 200 to snap a clean shift 2-3. The dual feed unit is a whole different ball game. Light throttle overlap is a beyotch. Anything over 1/4 throttle life is all good. You clean that overlap up on 10.50 car it becomes a flair on the 10.0 - 9.50 car ( a true balancing act) so I agree with the example you posted. Now we take line pressures. With more line same calibration changes the 2-3 shift characteristics. The band release 3rd clutch apply, different clutches, band materials, Internal leaks, clutch wear, band wear, Fluid type all become a factor. So ones shift kit might work great for one build and not so good for another. Same calibration works great on a fresh unit becomes a flair shifter after some miles are put on it. So for any builder to claim they have the FIX ALL shift kit that works on every transmission is just misinformation IMO. This is one reason I don't sell a shift kit. Too many variables.
I personally build my units the same. As I have found out over the years the fella that says he is only running hi 10s ends up in low 10s and then hi 9s or even faster. So I build the unit to get there if needed or not. But I am very consistent. I use the same clutch/Band/Servo/Line pressure etc. I also take into consideration the factors as the unit wears will come into play at some point. I have found that something as simple as s fluid change from dextron3 to type f can alter the shift timing. So my calibration works good for my transmission build. Is it the best? It is for my unit.
I now understand that any opinion posted someone is going to get pi$$ed. So here it goes. Any Builder that post he has corrected all the calibration issues that have been issues for years and now full billet transmissions are required is just horse $hit. It has been done for 9 years that I personally can prove many times over. Now to be fair there are no down sides to having the additional billet parts. Its a free market a vendor can sell his product for what ever he chooses. That is still not a guarantee that because the parts are installed it will live to mid 9s low 9s or even hi 10s for that matter. Its an easy claim to make. But the proof is in the pudding.
Anyone that cares to see details check out my website in the next few days. I will have some interesting facts and comparisons.
The 10 second trans and the 9.50 unit are two completely different units. The same calibration typically does not work for both units. Anyone can get the std feed 200 to snap a clean shift 2-3. The dual feed unit is a whole different ball game. Light throttle overlap is a beyotch. Anything over 1/4 throttle life is all good. You clean that overlap up on 10.50 car it becomes a flair on the 10.0 - 9.50 car ( a true balancing act) so I agree with the example you posted. Now we take line pressures. With more line same calibration changes the 2-3 shift characteristics. The band release 3rd clutch apply, different clutches, band materials, Internal leaks, clutch wear, band wear, Fluid type all become a factor. So ones shift kit might work great for one build and not so good for another. Same calibration works great on a fresh unit becomes a flair shifter after some miles are put on it. So for any builder to claim they have the FIX ALL shift kit that works on every transmission is just misinformation IMO. This is one reason I don't sell a shift kit. Too many variables.
I personally build my units the same. As I have found out over the years the fella that says he is only running hi 10s ends up in low 10s and then hi 9s or even faster. So I build the unit to get there if needed or not. But I am very consistent. I use the same clutch/Band/Servo/Line pressure etc. I also take into consideration the factors as the unit wears will come into play at some point. I have found that something as simple as s fluid change from dextron3 to type f can alter the shift timing. So my calibration works good for my transmission build. Is it the best? It is for my unit.
I now understand that any opinion posted someone is going to get pi$$ed. So here it goes. Any Builder that post he has corrected all the calibration issues that have been issues for years and now full billet transmissions are required is just horse $hit. It has been done for 9 years that I personally can prove many times over. Now to be fair there are no down sides to having the additional billet parts. Its a free market a vendor can sell his product for what ever he chooses. That is still not a guarantee that because the parts are installed it will live to mid 9s low 9s or even hi 10s for that matter. Its an easy claim to make. But the proof is in the pudding.
Anyone that cares to see details check out my website in the next few days. I will have some interesting facts and comparisons.
Well I will continue to what Im doing here.It seems a full billet 2004r for 1999 is something alot have been waiting for.The overwhelming interest and sales over the last 2 weeks proves it.And if people arent happy with what they got they can always come here and beat me up if I didnt do them right,.LOL.
I have updated the build sheet as well and will continue over the weekend www.CKPerformance.com
Lonnie,
My post wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular.
I just get tired of hearing the builders or their nuthuggers who say they are the only ones who have figured out how to make 3rd live in a 200-4R, etc.
I've been doing it for 5+ yrs and IMO there are only three things needed specifically for the 3rd gear clutches.
A deep pan
Dual feed
Proper band kick-off (shift timing).
If you have enough pressure to keep the band and other clutches alive, you have what's needed for the 3rd clutches.
In all honesty a guy could take a TransGo Reprogramming kit, build a solid 200-4R with STOCK frictions and a decent band, make one calibration change for the band release with dual feed, and it will live into the 10's for years.
Everybody has their own build technique.
I helped Chris do some testing for his Recal Kit years ago, but I don't use his kit. I use some of the same features but I couldn't tell you what his hole sizes are, etc.
I do recommend his kit for those that want to build their own transmission, because it's the only one out there commercially available that works and is complete. Pressure regulator parts, boost valve, new plate, accum springs, etc.
I should buy his plates by the dozen but I keep telling myself I'm going to quit building 200-4Rs as often.
Edit:
On the subject of dual feeding the directs.
I had one come in recently with what was obviously a low pressure failure. Forward clutches absolutely cooked, welded together. I had to destroy the case to save the billet drum.
I suspect a TV cable issue because the pump still looked new and all the TV system seemed to function OK, even when tested in our test car.
Of course the customer seems to think it was fine and it has been in a car for about 3 yrs behind a 496 BBC.
The fwds were welded together, band was burnt, low reverse and OD's showed some heat, directs still appeared new.
That's a testament to the dual feed modification IMO.
My post wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular.
I just get tired of hearing the builders or their nuthuggers who say they are the only ones who have figured out how to make 3rd live in a 200-4R, etc.
I've been doing it for 5+ yrs and IMO there are only three things needed specifically for the 3rd gear clutches.
A deep pan
Dual feed
Proper band kick-off (shift timing).
If you have enough pressure to keep the band and other clutches alive, you have what's needed for the 3rd clutches.
In all honesty a guy could take a TransGo Reprogramming kit, build a solid 200-4R with STOCK frictions and a decent band, make one calibration change for the band release with dual feed, and it will live into the 10's for years.
Everybody has their own build technique.
I helped Chris do some testing for his Recal Kit years ago, but I don't use his kit. I use some of the same features but I couldn't tell you what his hole sizes are, etc.
I do recommend his kit for those that want to build their own transmission, because it's the only one out there commercially available that works and is complete. Pressure regulator parts, boost valve, new plate, accum springs, etc.
I should buy his plates by the dozen but I keep telling myself I'm going to quit building 200-4Rs as often.
Edit:
On the subject of dual feeding the directs.
I had one come in recently with what was obviously a low pressure failure. Forward clutches absolutely cooked, welded together. I had to destroy the case to save the billet drum.
I suspect a TV cable issue because the pump still looked new and all the TV system seemed to function OK, even when tested in our test car.
Of course the customer seems to think it was fine and it has been in a car for about 3 yrs behind a 496 BBC.
The fwds were welded together, band was burnt, low reverse and OD's showed some heat, directs still appeared new.
That's a testament to the dual feed modification IMO.
