200-4R losing 1-2 shift firmness UPDATE

[SS-EXPRESS]

Well I finally got some time on my hands to get the car up to Dynotech this weekend and have them diagnose what was wrong with my trans. The whole time I’m thinking I could luck out with possibly a broken accumulator spring…..NOPE! Took a quick ride with Eric and he said the 1-2 band anchor is definitely damaged. This really bummed me out because I have been to hell and back with this transmission already. This is the third 200-4r that’s been in the car. The first 2 were a simple economy rebuilds (rebuilt by trans shop in the area) with a shift kit, they didn’t last long. I finally bit the bullet and went with their street/strip build that is rated to withstand 500HP and 500 ft-lbs of torque but I guess that still wasn’t a big enough factor of safety. I figured I would be ok since my engine is only putting out a measly 350 HP at the flywheel. The transmission has been in the car for 2 years now and then this happens. Don’t get me wrong these guys build one hell of a transmission I just wasn’t expecting 400+ dollars of maintenance every few years. I am still not satisfied with the performance of my car being only a mid 13 sec ride. But now I am very discouraged to add on to my engine and try and hit 12s because then how long is the transmission going to last? Do you guys break these parts once in a while? I am not beating the hell out of it either. I mean it sees a few passes at the track during the year and about 10-12K miles each year of daily driving.

I was also wondering if you can verify a damaged band by checking the movement in the servo? Does excessive movement mean a broken band?

Is there a reason my car keeps eating up these transmissions and the GN guys don’t??? It seems like the majority of these turbo g-bodies can blow my doors off on the street but they don’t seem to go through transmissions like me. I mean the GNX went faster than my car does stock and I’m sure their transmission lasted longer than 2 years. Is it something about how the V-6 applies its power differently than the V-8s, or is this just a myth?

Sorry just needed to vent a little.

 

[Firechicken]

I think if the anchor is broken you will not have 2nd at all because the band can't apply. If you have second, but it slips going in, then likely the band is finished or on its way.

If the band isn't already toast, you might be able to use an adjustable servo pin, or use an extendo tip on the old pin to tighten up the band. Chances are slim that this will work if the band has been slipping, but it is worth a shot.

Because the GN's have a larger Servo, which is what applies the band, the amount of force applying the band is much greater than what the servos found in all other 2004R's can produce. Consequently there is less slipping of the band. These larger servos were only used in GN's and Turbo Buicks.

If you haven't already upgraded the servo, it is definately wise to do so. The best one is actually a specific original gm servo from an old TH200 3 speed trans. These actually have more apply area than even the GN servo. Contact Chris at CK Performance to see if he has any left. If not, then the next best thing is an aftermarket servo which you will not have trouble finding. All of them are also larger than the GN servo.

 

[thunderace31]

My Trans lost the 1st gear band this year also. Seems to be very commen from what I am hearing.
I went 12.39 on Smoking Street tires last fall and 2 weeks later I got on it and it was slippin
I never even hooked the car up well, so this was a real surprise to me that it would take a crap that fast. Now I dont know much about the trans thats in it just that it was a very good rebuild. (or so I was told by the person I purchased the car from) What I due know is I made 10 Pass total and about 5,000 street miles since I got it. Then it blew
I am going to go with the one guy on the Board here (From Roseville Mi) that dose the Good Rebuilds and see where I end up with that. I have also been told a lot of the problem's happen because the Pick up is in the Front of the Pan in these Trannys so going to the Deep Pan with the Rear P/U is a huge Up grade I also plan to do. Should be worth the 300$ I think.
Hope this helps and good luck

 

[suicide six]

Changing tranny guy may or maynot help.Most places doing these trannys have been doing them for yrs.But no matter how good they are,The parts they put into these things they have little control over. Many have started producing their own parts to gain control as well as reputation.Top quality parts must be used to give your GN a chance of a long life.The board member you mention-Brian from mich- does have a good rep,as well as great service and feedback.

 

[bison]

You should not be smoking bands or anchor pins in these cars. Even in a low 11 sec TR the 200-4R should hold up for a long time if built properly. Ive seen at least 5 instances in the last 3 years where guys sucked air and burned the band in these cars. One was with low fluid and the others were with hard launches with slicks. If the band is going you have to consider the following:

Has the drum been turned undersize?
Have the bushings on the drum been replaced to limit deflection on apply?
Is it out of round?
Was the band clearance set properly?
Is the pin bottoming out in the case?
Are the lip seals installed properly on the servo?
Is the pump output adequate?
Is there a leak in the 1-2 apply circuit?

Some of these things seem obvious but i have seen them overlooked in built transmissions. I have seen the 200-4R last in ten second cars also with the stock internals but i dont reccomend trying it without the billet forward housing and a dual feed on direct or the direct clutches will need replacing often.

 

[thunderace31]

Always great info!
I am sure there will be much more
Good luck with your fix !

 

[Warp6]

I have a 111 servo if you're interested. I bought it before I installed a different trans completely. I paid $80 plus shipping. I'll let it go for $80 shipped. I never even installed it after I got it. e-mail me at ctaylor21@triad.rr.com or reply here. Thanks, Craig

 

[77 cruiser]

What kind of band did you have?

It happens.
BANDS AND RELATED:
We have tried and tested all kinds of bands. The Raybestos Pro Series had the best lining but when pressures started going up, anchors started coming off. The Banco Reline worked very well with a stock design base and red lining. Nothing special done to anchor but only broke one. Borg 210's gave me the best luck but every 15-20 or so one would fail. Anchor most of the time. Then Alto came up with an extra wide band done very nicely and anchor problem is solved. The Alto Red Eagle band (Red,.. no Kevlar) We beat this thing up and not one failure to date!!!

 

[bison]

What kind of band did you have?

It happens.
BANDS AND RELATED:
We have tried and tested all kinds of bands. The Raybestos Pro Series had the best lining but when pressures started going up, anchors started coming off. The Banco Reline worked very well with a stock design base and red lining. Nothing special done to anchor but only broke one. Borg 210's gave me the best luck but every 15-20 or so one would fail. Anchor most of the time. Then Alto came up with an extra wide band done very nicely and anchor problem is solved. The Alto Red Eagle band (Red,.. no Kevlar) We beat this thing up and not one failure to date!!!

I prefer the Alto red myself. Especially with aftermarket servos and higher line pressures. Ive never had one fail either.

 

[SS-EXPRESS]

I mean do you guys think these guys should stand behind their trans builds? They advertise that the build I opted to go with is perfect if your performance goals are 500HP or 11.99 ET. You can see my sig and estimate that I am no where near that power output. This just sucks because after I get it back how long is it going to last this time??? Do you guys think $400 is reasonable to fix this problem? Thats probably what they are going to bill me when its all said and done.

 

[Turbo1dr]

Sorry to hear your troubles. I have had the usual governor spring pop out of my 200-4R but haven't never had any bad problems with it. The I had it rebuilt in 1997 with just a shift kit and nothing else really special. Just last month I took it back to him just to check if anything was wrong inside of it. I wasn't noticing anything out of the ordinary being a daily driver. When he disassembled it, the band, third clutches and overdrive clutches were scorched but not causing any problems during everyday driving. Seems like some transmissions fail more often than others for some reason.

 

[bison]

I mean do you guys think these guys should stand behind their trans builds? They advertise that the build I opted to go with is perfect if your performance goals are 500HP or 11.99 ET. You can see my sig and estimate that I am no where near that power output. This just sucks because after I get it back how long is it going to last this time??? Do you guys think $400 is reasonable to fix this problem? Thats probably what they are going to bill me when its all said and done.

The trans was purchased two years ago and run for that time. You should try to get a deal with them if you can. Like agree to bring them the trans and fix on the bench and you reinstall. See if they will waive the labor. Its not a hard fix for a trans shop and could be done in 1.5hrs with a good tech on it. If the problem is not related to the build then they should not be liable. Ive seen burned bands and drums in new trans that were from the incorrect TV adjustment. If it needs a drum, band, and anchor pin then it wont set you back too much. If this had happened a week after you got it, i would expect them to make good on it with no cost to you.

 

[SS-EXPRESS]

I was thinking of taking the trans out and bringing it up to them but since I live 2 hours away I would hate to pull the trans just for an accumulator spring. I also wanted them to take a ride in it and diagnois what the problem was and I was hoping it would be a fix that could be performed by simply dropping the pan. After he told me it needed a band I already prepared for the worst and had my girl follow me so I had a ride home. So basically I am stuck and the car is there now being repaired. Hopefully it won't be to much.

 

[bison]

I was thinking of taking the trans out and bringing it up to them but since I live 2 hours away I would hate to pull the trans just for an accumulator spring. I also wanted them to take a ride in it and diagnois what the problem was and I was hoping it would be a fix that could be performed by simply dropping the pan. After he told me it needed a band I already prepared for the worst and had my girl follow me so I had a ride home. So basically I am stuck and the car is there now being repaired. Hopefully it won't be to much.

Get the band, the broken anchor, and the drum if they replaced those parts and post pics of them so we can see what happened.

 

[SS-EXPRESS]

I picked up the car last night and shes shifting sweet again. The anchor on the 1-2 band was oblong and 2 of the clutches were slighty glazed. I have the parts and can post pics sometime this weekend if I have time. Total bill was $577 and some change. I was kinda hoping it would have been a problem that could have been addressed by simply dropping the pan and could have saved 250 if I had taken the car back home and taken the trans out and then brought it back to them. But is it really worth a 2 hour drive one way take the trans out then a 2 hour drive back drop the trans off then drive 2 hours back home just to save $250. Now I have a little over 2 grand into this trans including the intial build. Hopefully she will stay together for more than a few years because after paint this month all I want to do is have fun with the car after that.

Thanks for all the input fellas and stay tuned for pics of the damage band.

 

[bison]

What clutches? I thought you said the 1-2 was going away. What band did they put in?

 

[SS-EXPRESS]

They replaced the 1-2 band and I believe he said the overdrive clutches were slightly glazed so he replaced them too. I got the old broken band and 2 red clutches in the box of parts they gave back to me because you guys said you wanted to see what they looked like.

 

[SS-EXPRESS]

Pix Added

Oblong band anchor on the 1-2 band

Old clutch pack that was replaced also

 

[Sleeper-6]

Looks like the Directs and the OD clutches. That's not an alto band either. Hopefully they replaced it with one of the wide red bands and all your problems are solved. At least you had Alto clutches in there. I'm still trying to figure out what clutches were in my direct pack, I'm pretty sure they were not alto reds and I think that's what was supposed to be in there.

 

[bison]

That was not the right band for the aplication as you found out. Only the Alto wide should be employed.