2014 TSO Rules Discussion

[HighPSI]

Remove the 275 tire requirement for the GT-55/Pro-Mod 88 but add a weight penalty just for using that turbo frame/size. There is a weight break for 82mm turbos and smaller, so it makes sense for a weight penalty for the bigger turbos.

3000 for smaller than 88mm
3250 for 88mm (47-88 or what ever it's called now)
3400 for Pro Mod/GT-55 turbo

Example: Pro-Mod turbo, liquid IC and wheelie bars he needs to weigh 3500

Change wording for tire size to also include P tire sizes

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Why would you raise the weight break from 82mm to anything smaller than the 88? The new 8685 is rated at the same hp as the 4788 that most TSO racers are currently using? I will continue to add all your proposed changes to the ballet, I'm just curious what your reasoning is. Jimmy Morrison has already ran 8.11 with an 8285. Just so I'm keeping up, so far you want:

No dry sumps

Weight penalty on E85

Anyone who sets a ET or MPH record, the car should be weighed and check the turbo if it comforms to the rules

Remove the 275 tire requirement for the GT-55/Pro-Mod 88 but add a weight penalty just for using that turbo frame/size:
3000 for smaller than 88mm
3250 for 88mm (47-88 or what ever it's called now)
3400 for Pro Mod/GT-55 turbo

Change wording for tire size to also include P tire sizes

 

[HighPSI]

I'll put this out for everyone. It is NOT directed at Billy:

These rule changes are submitted to eliminate an unfair advantage, increase car count, or clarify a current rule, etc.. This isn't supposed to be an avenue to try and get an advantage. For example, we could ask for a 500# weight penalty for liquid setups (3 cars) and since most guys don't run liquids it could be voted in even though it's obviously not for the best of the class. The same holds true for E85 (5 cars), dry sumps (1 car), wheelie bars (1 car), etc... I hope that when everyone votes, they are thinking of the good of the class and not how it will give them an advantage, otherwise, car count will drop fast.

Speaking of car count. I want to thank every one of you for participating. Buick events keep getting smaller and smaller, yet we keep getting more and more cars in what has to be the most expensive Buick class out there.

 

[gnxtc2]

I just threw numbers out there. I based my numbers on turbo sizes available within a certain frame, GT42 vs GT45 vs GT47 vs GT55.

You want to keep a level playing field. Example go to a race with a 90° ambient temp, the car with the A2W is going to outperform the A2À car.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

 

[HighPSI]

I just threw numbers out there. I based my numbers on turbo sizes available within a certain frame, GT42 vs GT47 vs GT55.

You want to keep a level playing field. Example go to a race with a 90° ambient temp, the car with the A2W is going to outperform the A2À car.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

You must have forgotten the GT45 when you were doing your numbers. LOL

I agree an A2W should be an advantage, but so far, the only 7 second TSO passes have been made with A2A cars.

 

[jimmymorrisonjr]

I would definitely be careful with the wording for the smaller turbo weight break. There are so many turbos coming out now smaller than 88 that make good power. I would reword the rule to say 82 and smaller not 85 and smaller to be safe. I think the 82mm at 3000 lbs would be in the mix with the big boys. I don't think you would want an 85mm at 3000lb.

Can someone explain a good reason not to let dry sumps in? I realize there could be a small amount of power there but is it measurable in our cars?

Other than that I like the rules the way they are. I say let them eat.

 

[gnxtc2]

Have a vote on the turbo break down.

What I'm concerned about with the E85 is the removal of the IC. I don't know what the air intake temps are or if one takes out timing with E85, could they remove the IC? There has to be other advantages of E85 besides the cost of it.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

 

[gnxtc2]

You must have forgotten the GT45 when you were doing your numbers. LOL

Fixed

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[gnxtc2]

Also could this be addressed in the rules

Turbo reducers - 88mm to 80mm

http://www.berrymotorsports.net/Category/Turbo/

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[HighPSI]

Also could this be addressed in the rules

Turbo reducers - 88mm to 80mm

http://www.berrymotorsports.net/Category/Turbo/

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

What's to address? Those measurement is from the tip of the impeller not the opening of the cover.

 

[HighPSI]

Fixed

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Now that you fixed it. Please explain why you want to change the rules to allow an 8685 to get a weight break over a 4788? I'm also curious what advantage a dry sump has and why you want to eliminate a car from the class?
This class has always been an 88mm class. We added a weight break for smaller turbos to encourage the TSL guys to join us at events where they couldn't run TSL. In the end, sadly, that class disappeared. We added the 275 tire rule because a bunch of guys hinted they were going to run X-275 and didn't want to buy two turbos. As far as I know, nobody has the Pro-mod/GT55 turbo and this would be the time to eliminate it and thus the 275 rule. If someone has already gotten that turbo then I would advise against changing. Thankfully, this year no one has brought up a weight penalty for Stage headed cars since they are currently the only ones running 7's. Don's 180mph pass probably is the main reason. Personally, I hate to make a bunch of rule changes when things seem to be working pretty well. These are just my opinions that I should probably keep to myself, since I am supposed to be unbiased

 

[gnxtc2]

Now that you fixed it. Please explain why you want to change the rules to allow an 8685 to get a weight break over a 4788? I'm also curious what advantage a dry sump has and why you want to eliminate a car from the class?
This class has always been an 88mm class. We added a weight break for smaller turbos to encourage the TSL guys to join us at events where they couldn't run TSL. In the end, sadly, that class disappeared. We added the 275 tire rule because a bunch of guys hinted they were going to run X-275 and didn't want to buy two turbos. As far as I know, nobody has the Pro-mod/GT55 turbo and this would be the time to eliminate it and thus the 275 rule. If someone has already gotten that turbo then I would advise against changing. Thankfully, this year no one has brought up a weight penalty for Stage headed cars since they are currently the only ones running 7's. Don's 180mph pass probably is the main reason. Personally, I hate to make a bunch of rule changes when things seem to be working pretty well. These are just my opinions that I should probably keep to myself, since I am supposed to be unbiased

Read, read, read, read.......I was throwing numbers out/ comparing turbo frame sizes. The numbers can/should be changed if they are wrong. I based my numbers on turbo size not HP ratings. What if Precision came out with a GT42-76 that was rated at 1600HP, 200HP over 47-88. Is the weight of the car going to be based on turbo size or HP rating????

I'm not in favor of throwing anyone out. During peer tech at BG, the question of dry sumps came up. My post was to clarrify if they allowed or not.

Put an 47-88 on the car and reduce it down to an 80mm with the ring. Says nothing about using rings, just impeller size. What should the car weigh......3250 or 3000??????

It is better to have something written on paper than not to.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[HighPSI]

Billy, not only did I read the rules, I wrote the rules. If we put everything that is legal in the rules, it would be an encyclopedia. This is why we list what is NOT legal. Nowhere does it say dry sumps are illegal. You said you want to put it to a vote. Nothing to vote on unless you want to make it illegal.

It says the turbos are measured at the tip of the impeller, I don't care if you put a 60mm ring on there, you still will measure 88mm at the tip of the impeller. You want to move the weight break from 85mm to under 88mm KNOWING that the 8685 turbo is rated at the same hp as the 4788. So I will ask for the 3rd time. Why do you want to change the rules to allow an 8685 to get a weight break over a 4788? This rule change has to be directed specifically at that turbo. What other turbo falls under 88mm and is larger than 85mm, thus requiring a rule change? If I remember correctly, you were the one that proposed are current weight/turbo. From last years discussion:

What I'm going to propose is going to be a tough weight to make w/o totally gutting the car.
Current weights are:
TSL is 3400
TSO is 3250
I propose to make it 3000 with a smaller turbo. Most of the times the TSL cars jump into TSO to make car count. Currently the max turbo size in TSL is a 42-76.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

If you go back and review previous rules discussion, you will see the weights are there to keep an even playing field based on the hp ratings of different turbos. This was really a problem several years ago when one racer wanted to use a large frame Turbonetics 88 turbo and everyone else had smaller frame Precision turbos. We opened the rules up to allow the larger Turbonetics turbo and it then opened the door to the PTE 4788 turbo.

 

[gnxtc2]

Billy, not only did I read the rules, I wrote the rules. If we put everything that is legal in the rules, it would be an encyclopedia. This is why we list what is NOT legal. Nowhere does it say dry sumps are illegal. You said you want to put it to a vote. Nothing to vote on unless you want to make it illegal.

Then why in BG did we have to pull up the rules to confirm if dry sumps were legal or not? Just wanted to make clarification.

It says the turbos are measured at the tip of the impeller, I don't care if you put a 60mm ring on there, you still will measure 88mm at the tip of the impeller. You want to move the weight break from 85mm to under 88mm KNOWING that the 8685 turbo is rated at the same hp as the 4788. So I will ask for the 3rd time. Why do you want to change the rules to allow an 8685 to get a weight break over a 4788? This rule change has to be directed specifically at that turbo. What other turbo falls under 88mm and is larger than 85mm, thus requiring a rule change? If I remember correctly, you were the one that proposed are current weight/turbo. From last years discussion:



If you go back and review previous rules discussion, you will see the weights are there to keep an even playing field based on the hp ratings of different turbos. This was really a problem several years ago when one racer wanted to use a large frame Turbonetics 88 turbo and everyone else had smaller frame Precision turbos. We opened the rules up to allow the larger Turbonetics turbo and it then opened the door to the PTE 4788 turbo.

I'm not familiar with the Turbonetics 88 issue as I was not involved in the class.

Like I said, I just threw numbers out there; took them out of the air. Same way I threw out the 3000 lbs last year. If I am wrong, correct me. I took frame size vs frame size.

Is the 47-88 the same as the 88-47 or is it the 88-84?
8685=1400HP
4788=1400HP
8884=1475HP

We basing turbo size on impeller size or HP rating?

Billy T.
gnxrtc2@aol.com

 

[HighPSI]

Then why in BG did we have to pull up the rules to confirm if dry sumps were legal or not? Just wanted to make clarification.

Because someone questioned whether dry sumps were legal. I looked in the rules and verified they were.

Like I said, I just threw numbers out there; took them out of the air. Same way I threw out the 3000 lbs last year. If I am wrong, correct me. I took frame size vs frame size.

Is the 47-88 the same as the 88-47 or is it the 88-84?
8685=1400HP
4788=1400HP
8884=1475HP

We basing turbo size on impeller size or HP rating?

Billy T.
gnxrtc2@aol.com

We take everything into consideration including what turbos everyone is currently running. I don't know of any current TSO racer running an 8884. Nearly every 88 is a 4788 (8847). You are currently running a 76mm turbo which already gets a weight break. Why would you want to raise that to anything under an 88 unless you are changing turbos? Nobody currently has a turbo that would be effected. Your purpose for this rule change is very transparent. So I will ask for the 4th time. Maybe if it's in red you will see it. Why do you want to change the rules to allow an 8685 to get a weight break over a 4788? This rule change has to be directed specifically at that turbo. What other turbo falls under 88mm and is larger than 85mm, thus requiring a rule change?

 

[jimmymorrisonjr]

Cal,
I don't think we need Billy to tell us his intentions or motives to take it to a vote. I propose to make it a three option vote. Leave the rule alone, reduce turbo size to 82 or smaller for 250lb break, or increase to less than 88.
If I am not mistaken Precisions new numbering has what we call the 4788 listed as a 8884.
Let's not forget Precision is not nearly the only player.

 

[gnxtc2]

Because someone questioned whether dry sumps were legal. I looked in the rules and verified they were.

So there would an issue if it was written in the rules that they are legal.

We take everything into consideration including what turbos everyone is currently running. I don't know of any current TSO racer running an 8884. Nearly every 88 is a 4788 (8847). You are currently running a 76mm turbo which already gets a weight break. Why would you want to raise that to anything under an 88 unless you are changing turbos? Nobody currently has a turbo that would be effected. Your purpose for this rule change is very transparent. So I will ask for the 4th time. Maybe if it's in red you will see it. Why do you want to change the rules to allow an 8685 to get a weight break over a 4788? This rule change has to be directed specifically at that turbo. What other turbo falls under 88mm and is larger than 85mm, thus requiring a rule change?

I really don't care if it's smaller than 86, I just grabbed numbers out of the air like I always posted.

I thought this was for racers to vote on a particular rule change. The rule doesn't change unless everyone votes on it, correct???

I went on Precision's site and the only turbo that resembles the 88s on the majority of the cars is an 8884 (GT47 style) which rated for 1475. Maybe the old school 47-88 is rated a 1400. The 8847 on Precision's site is available with an H cover.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[HighPSI]

That is a great suggestion, Jimmy. I will revise the ballot accordingly

Edit: Treed by Billy

 

[gnxtc2]

So there would an issue if it was written in the rules that they are legal.





I really don't care if it's smaller than 86, I just grabbed numbers out of the air like I always posted.

I thought this was for racers to vote on a particular rule change. The rule doesn't change unless everyone votes on it, correct???

I went on Precision's site and the only turbo that resembles the 88s on the majority of the cars is an 8884 (GT47 style) which rated for 1475. Maybe the old school 47-88 is rated a 1400. The 8847 on Precision's site is available with an H cover.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Cal,
I don't think we need Billy to tell us his intentions or motives to take it to a vote. I propose to make it a three option vote. Leave the rule alone, reduce turbo size to 82 or smaller for 250lb break, or increase to less than 88.
If I am not mistaken Precisions new numbering has what we call the 4788 listed as a 8884.
Let's not forget Precision is not nearly the only player.

Thanks Jimmy, that was my whole point.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[gnxtc2]

That is a great suggestion, Jimmy. I will revise the ballot accordingly

Edit: Treed by Billy

Don't forget about the Pro-Mod 88, Yea with 3400, Nay, not allowed or leave alone.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Brad T]

Don't forget about the Pro-Mod 88, Yea with 3400, Nay, not allowed or leave alone.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

So I can run the pro-mod 88 with the liquid cooler and slicks at 3400 # ?