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Alky and widebad readings

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Slow91z

Turbobuick.com Helper
Staff member
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Aug 7, 2003
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I'm sure this has been discussed but I'm not having any luck with the search feature.

What does alky do to wideband readings?? Reason I'm asking is I'm thinking about moving up to a fast system, and obviously it's wideband dependent.
 
The alcohol has a lower stoich. Meaning all you need to do is lower your target by point and your done. This is to start. When you get the FAST and you look at your target tables.. you'll understand.
 
Lower my target by point??

Could you clarify this please? Sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake, but once I get it I'm good.

Do you lower the actual ratio number a point?
 
yes I am interested in this too....my Target AFR was 10.5.....I thought you bumped up the Target AFR when adding alky....
 
gas stoich 14.5
(wonder what it is now with the 10% ethanol mixed ???)
meth stoich 6.4

typical wot gas has forever been 11.5 -12.0

if you add meth your stioch point needs to be lower (richer) for a complete burn so your target A/F has to be lowered for a comlete burn

put 10.5 -10.9 as your A/F target depending on boost level and amount of alky your car needs
 
Ive been running 10.8:1 with good results lately. It may be a little too lean for some though.
 
yes I am interested in this too....my Target AFR was 10.5.....I thought you bumped up the Target AFR when adding alky....

Opposite.. you bumped in the wrong direction... meaning your to go down not up. Meaning a gasoline target is 11.5. When cutting your fuel with methanol.. drop it a point to 10.5.

HTH
 
And.. 10.5 is just a starting point. Meaning someones car may respond better to 11.2:1 and someone elses may be 10.1:1. Dont start at 11.5 with alky.. start way richer and only lean it out as your particular engine improves performance.
 
so thats why my AFR went up....had fueling to 11.0 AFR and when I hadded the alky AFR went up to 12.4....so I need to back it down..to 9.0 and start from there...thanks
 
Your wideband O2 is reading lambda and then translating that to an a/f number setup for the fuel the O2 unit was intended to be used with.

14.64 to one for gasoline = 1.0 lambda.
6.45 to one for alcohol = 1.0 lambda.

.72 (lambda) x 14.64 (stoich a/f for gasoline) = 10.54 to one. The simularities? Pretty rich for gasoline.
.72 (lambda) x 6.45 (stoich for methanol) = 4.64 to one. The simularities? Pretty rich for alcohol.

You could switch completely over to alcohol and your O2 would read the same. The a/f numbers that you may want to target may change because of the different characteristics of the fuels, but the sensor readout numbers will be similar to what you'd expect to see as if you were running gasoline.

Some people get used to tuning using straight lambda numbers without translating it to an a/f number for the particular fuel being used. In that case, they're aware of what lambda number works for each type of fuel and that lambda number will be very close to being the same from fuel to fuel.

1.0 lambda is stoich no matter what fuel you're using. Gas to propane to nitro.
.72 is a safe WOT rich mixture. No matter what fuel you're using or what percentages of fuel mix you're using.
.91 lambda is a lean best WOT mixture. No matter the fuel or mix.

Now the target lambda (translated to a/f number) may be slightly different when changing or mixing fuels because of the changes in the properties of the fuels, but you will find that the O2 reading will end up staying with what you're already familiar with. A/f readout numbers on a gasoline fuel scale.

Just remember the sensor reads lambda. Then translates that number to a number that you can be more familiar with. A/F ratio. When you start mixing or changing types of fuels, just keep reading the sensor as if you were still on straight gasoline. Keep in mind though, that with the new fuel or mix of fuels, the fuel properties has changed from that of straight gasoline and new target a/f numbers may be necessary. Still the numbers will not be drastically off what you'd expect with straight gasoline and the new numbers will not be a true indication of the ACTUAL new a/f ratio you'll be running.

For instance, my target rich WOT a/f number is 10.5 to 10.7 to one for 24 psi boost. Very close to what everyone here has been recommending. That is what I have programmed into my ECM and that's what reads out in my datalogs. As I start moving up into higher boost, I'm sure I'll be moving that target to somewhere closer to 10.2 to 10.3 to one to make more use of the chemical intercooling properties of the methanol.

Every engine combination is different. The target a/f number from one combination may be wrong for yours. The only safe way to do this is to start out rich and move to lean until you've found the best performance without getting into detonation or worse.

By the way, my engine runs on pure methanol only.
 
so thats why my AFR went up....had fueling to 11.0 AFR and when I hadded the alky AFR went up to 12.4....so I need to back it down..to 9.0 and start from there...thanks

The methanol is adding it's own oxygen to your overall fuel mix. Every change in the amount of alky you're injecting could mean that a new target a/f number will need to be found. I'm talking about slight changes because of the change in the characteristics of your new fuel mix.
 
Ok here is one way you can do this, tell me what you think Razor and Don.

12:1 is safe ratio for Gas FI.
6:1 is safe ratio for Methanol FI.

If you can figure out how much Methanol vs Fuel you are using you can do this.

I'll use a 90% fuel vs 10% Methanol Injection mix.

12 x 90 = 1080
6 x 10 = 60

1140/100 = 11.4

11.4 is the safe/power Air Fuel Ratio.
 
How can you figure that ratio? It would be helpful to know that ratio for zeroing in on the air/fuel ratio.
 
Ok here is one way you can do this, tell me what you think Razor and Don.

12:1 is safe ratio for Gas FI.
6:1 is safe ratio for Methanol FI.

If you can figure out how much Methanol vs Fuel you are using you can do this.

I'll use a 90% fuel vs 10% Methanol Injection mix.

12 x 90 = 1080
6 x 10 = 60

1140/100 = 11.4

11.4 is the safe/power Air Fuel Ratio.
Hmmm. The a/f numbers you picked for each fuel are too lean for a high boost/low octane main fuel turbocharged application. Let's pick a safer ratio for each fuel, same percentage of mix.

11.2 x 90 = 1008
4.8 x 10 = 48

1056/100 = 10.56

Nice. Seems to work. But how could you easily measure what your actual mix is?

I would have to guess that the 10.56 is not exactly accurate because the formula is assuming two fuels with the same specific gravity. Gasoline and methanol have different sg's. Your math is not accounting for that.
 
also wouldn't different octanes would also make a difference??? and different pump pressure and alky volume...and injector size etc....turbo....boost etc
 
also wouldn't different octanes would also make a difference??? and different pump pressure and alky volume...and injector size etc....turbo....boost etc

Absolutely. With every slight change in the mix percentage, you've basically created a new fuel. That means starting from ground zero in terms of finding the correct timing, mixture strength, boost limit, knock resistance, etc. What a headache. Probably, in the real world, it's not that big of a deal. But if you're trying to fine tune things in, you'd better keep notes of every change you make, just in case you decide to back track to a certain percentage, you'll already know what works and what doesn't.
 
also wouldn't different octanes would also make a difference??? and different pump pressure and alky volume...and injector size etc....turbo....boost etc
You can calculate the alky flow with a pressure gauge while knowing the orifice size.
 
Ok here is one way you can do this, tell me what you think Razor and Don.

12:1 is safe ratio for Gas FI.
6:1 is safe ratio for Methanol FI.

If you can figure out how much Methanol vs Fuel you are using you can do this.

I'll use a 90% fuel vs 10% Methanol Injection mix.

12 x 90 = 1080
6 x 10 = 60

1140/100 = 11.4

11.4 is the safe/power Air Fuel Ratio.

Your on the right track, but most forced induction vehicles typically hover around the 11.5:1 as a real world number on gasoline. So bring your number down half a point. And if you run more than 10%.. that also brings the number down further.

Rule of thumb, start at 10.5:1 and work from there. Somebody's 10:1 is someone elses 11:1. Like O2's.. somebody's 730 is someone elses 800. What ever O2 the car makes the most mph(power) at.. that is its sweet spot..

Remember that video I posted a while back of a 291 ci V6 on 91 octane + a twin nozzle setup made like 1076 flywheel at 10.0:1 AFR.
 
You can calculate the alky flow with a pressure gauge while knowing the orifice size.

Yup.. another way is dial the car in on C16 then introduce alky... while wheening it of the C16. Once your on straight pump gas look at your injector duty cycle change from before and after at the same boost and timing. If with C16 your at 80% DC and on pump gas+alky your at 72% DC then your displacing 10%.
 
Ya the formula was just an easy starter kit for alky newbies that I thought might be somewhat helpful. Like the old schoolers say, Lean Is Mean. :D

Don't you guys with Powerlogger see the amount of fuel being pulled to keep your AF/R??
 
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