all in favor of a breakout rule at Noble.

[Jerryl]

Well, Let me put in my $0.02.

There are 30 Mustangs in the world to every GN (I compare to a TR, since this is a TR board)
Statistically, the chances of getting enough TR owners to commit and actually run, to match the massive "qty" of Mustangs showing is slim to none.

Let take some numbers I pulled out of my ………...… hat (uhmmmm)
It would require a 15% commitment of TR owners, vs a 1% of Mustang owners to match qty.
If you want to talk about quality, it would require 30% of TR owners against 3% of Mustang owners.
Just not in the stats.

Now, I have never been to the event, and am the proud owner of a 15 second GN.
I take it 15 seconds would help the cause, right? :biggrin:
So, do I need to run 17 seconds in qualifying to have a chance? ……….. Or ……….
Will I match up against an 11 second Mustang, so I can watch him go down the track?
To me, that is not a race. It is T&T.
If my chances to win are not in the 40-60% range, why even bother going?

Sandbagging is part of racing, if you race for $$$$ on the street which I condone by the way.
But at an event, you have to figure out a way to keep the playing field somewhat level.
If Evander Holyfiled has no competent component, and fights a welter weight, is he still the Heavy Weight Champ?
If the Houston Texans played a local HS football Team and win, are they considered good?

 

[carhell]

really my issue isn't about changing who wins or loses, its already been well established that we didn't bring a fast enough and large enough field. Its the fact that a lenient breakout rule would still bring slightly better matchups and put more pressure on the Ford camp. I don't think most in the stands enjoy watching a 11 sec car beat up on a 14 second car. The whole point of the event is to have good heads up racing and the sandbagging ruins a lot of it. There were quite a few good tight races in there but they were few and far between. With a breakout rule we still would have lost and there still would have been lots of matchups where the buick was a second slower or so. Nobody has listed one good reason that is detrimental to the event as to why there should not be a breakout rule. This does not turn it into a bracket race. .75 is a ton of time, hell .5 is a lot of time. I just don't see a downside at all.

I agree 100%. Put a break out and you wont have to worry about the car count and you have much better racing. Just my .02
Shawn Carlin

 

[johnplogii]

It has been pointed out that sandbagging only hurts your own team and its true. There were what, 94 races? Say a 10.0 flat car sandbags in qualifying. This moves him from spot #20 or so to spot #60 or so. He can easily win his one race but 40 other racers get moved up one spot to the next faster oponent. One car has a better chance while 40 cars have a lesser chance of winning. This hurts their team more than helps it. We need more cars like has been said. Two of us from the omaha area couldn't make it because we have the motors out of our cars, otherwise I have been there the last two years.

John

 

[sixgun86gn]

It has been pointed out that sandbagging only hurts your own team and its true. There were what, 94 races? Say a 10.0 flat car sandbags in qualifying. This moves him from spot #20 or so to spot #60 or so. He can easily win his one race but 40 other racers get moved up one spot to the next faster oponent. One car has a better chance while 40 cars have a lesser chance of winning. This hurts their team more than helps it. We need more cars like has been said. Two of us from the omaha area couldn't make it because we have the motors out of our cars, otherwise I have been there the last two years.

John

Not when the other 40 also sandbagged by over a second.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Not when the other 40 also sandbagged by over a second.

lol.

 

[Quik Six]

Not when the other 40 also sandbagged by over a second.

What is the basis for that comment? I haven't seen the final results of the race posted but I seriously doubt that 40 Ford people sandbagged by 1 second or more.

You got your car "sorted out" and ran nearly a full second faster. What if you had run a legit 11.40 Mustang, what would that driver have to say about you?

This race has been put on for 14 years with the fastest to the slowest matchup ladder with the team with the most wins being declared the winner. I've enjoyed this event for nearly 10 years and I've had my experiences with sandbaggers too but team Buick won, I had a great time and the name of the sandbagging POS has long been forgotten.

It's a shame that your trip was ruined by the actions of one twerp that drives a Mustang. The sponsoring group has no control over the childish actions of the participants and I still don't understand what a breakout rule would really change for an individual driver. Would granting a "W" in that race to them really change their feelings about what happened? Damned sure wouldn't effect the jerk, he's still a jerk that thinks he's cute.

Again, we need more cars and fewer red lights. In 2007, we had 11, Fords had 3.

Hope to see you in Noble next year.

Phil Engle

 

[sixgun86gn]

What is the basis for that comment? I haven't seen the final results of the race posted but I seriously doubt that 40 Ford people sandbagged by 1 second or more.

You got your car "sorted out" and ran nearly a full second faster. What if you had run a legit 11.40 Mustang, what would that driver have to say about you?

This race has been put on for 14 years with the fastest to the slowest matchup ladder with the team with the most wins being declared the winner. I've enjoyed this event for nearly 10 years and I've had my experiences with sandbaggers too but team Buick won, I had a great time and the name of the sandbagging POS has long been forgotten.

It's a shame that your trip was ruined by the actions of one twerp that drives a Mustang. The sponsoring group has no control over the childish actions of the participants and I still don't understand what a breakout rule would really change for an individual driver. Would granting a "W" in that race to them really change their feelings about what happened? Damned sure wouldn't effect the jerk, he's still a jerk that thinks he's cute.

Again, we need more cars and fewer red lights. In 2007, we had 11, Fords had 3.

Hope to see you in Noble next year.

Phil Engle

Damn near all of them sandbagged by over a second this year.

Yeah I got it somewhat sorted out,too bad the 60' was only a 1.91.

Still,had I gotten the pleasure of lining up with a true 11 sec mustang (which is not reality at this race anymore,unless of course you qual'd with a low 13) and beat him,it would be justice.

Matter of fact I didn't try to sandbag because of the problems with the car,but I knew I would have on purpose just to have a real side by side race.

Too bad even though I picked up .65 in ET he picked up 2 seconds!

You can keep trying to call it bracket racing and make excuses,the facts are the facts. I shouldn't have to turn down my tune and HOPE that when I turn it up it works right.

Everybody who owns a turbo buick knows you can't count on the tune to be the same just because it worked last time.

I could see it now,everybody runs low boost all day,then turns it up and pops and spits all the way down the track or blows a headgasket.

Real nice idea.

 

[sixgun86gn]

Also,if just one Ford guy lost his race due to sandbagging, i.e. outrunning his opponent by a HUGE margin and being DQ'ed for it..... the others will run on what they qual'd with in hopes of actually keeping thier point if they win.

This is how I see it working.

 

[Quik Six]

Let's wait to see the actual results of the times on both sides. They should be up in a few days.

Enlighten me. How do you determine this is a bracket race?

Thanks.

Phil Engle

 

[sixgun86gn]

Let's wait to see the actual results of the times on both sides. They should be up in a few days.

Enlighten me. How do you determine this is a bracket race?

Thanks.

Phil Engle

I didn't say it was a bracket race. It was suggested that putting a breakout rule in place would make it a bracket race.

Bracket races get a handicap start,this would be more like index racing except you could go say .5 faster than your best qual time and still win but go .6 faster and its hasta la vista.

I think .75 would be fair, thats ALOT of room but it ain't a full second either.

 

[JESUPERCAT]

We would make the trip out there to run our car. We have been there in years past to spectate and help with the Calahan car from AZ/NM. We had heard from a few people who had gone and participated at the Event, that we would not be able to run our Buick front engine dragster, but we could run their Cadillac .
I would say let "any" Buick powered car run and the numbers would go up.
I know it would go up by 2 anyway.

 

[JDSfastGN]

i dunno why they wouldn't let a buick powered front end dragster run??? I would love to see that. Hell it can't be much less qualified than a fiberglass bodied/parachute equipped ford powered tube chassis

And I agree with what sixgun just wrote.... not one person has come on here that objects to the rule and stated what detrimental effects it could have? I don't see a problem with cars running each other that have a qualifying time that is closer to one another. Hypothetically I would much rather watch an 8 second Ford race a mid 9 second buick than watch it beat down a 12.00 car or something silly. At least if the Ford broke or lost traction the buick would be able to put pressure on the ford.

 

[blown okie]

i hope you are still reading this thread Dick... our car count is suffering because of the sandbagging... make a rule to curb the sandbagging & i garuntee our car count will increase.. so its a win win situation... if certain people don't like the rule then don't come race...these people musta been one of people this rule will affect & if you can't run an honest match up & hafta sandbag over a second just to win a race i personally don't want you there racing

 

[mrstage1]

Hello, it's me, the Black "Apollo" tube chassis car at the shootout.

Guys, a sandbag rule really isn't the answer. Car count and seat time is far more valuable.

Let me give you my story. I opened Overkill Street Performance and Racing in February. It has taken all my time this year so I haven't got the NHRA license to run faster than 10.00 due to just not getting to the track all year in the car. Scott and Dick were both informed as such and informed me I'd need to stay above 10.00 in qualifying if I expected to run the final. I made an easy off the trailer motor pass shifting short and shaking off the rust of not driving the car at the track. 10.50@128. I KNEW that if I sprayed it end to end I'd be in deep doo-doo so on my next pass I ran it to just before the eighth mile blocks and went 10.28 coasting to the end. 1/8 mile was 5.93. I ran 9.80@141 in the final thanks to an alternator belt that departed the pulley on the burnout. I bet alot of people thought that was a big sandbag since on my shutdown 1/8 mile pass the clocks read 104 mph. Had the alternator belt not come off I woulda left on spray and it would have most certainly run a 9.20 or so at 150 and change. Then what would the sandbag have looked like? Over a second and 50mph? I don't feel guilty as Dick, Scott and I discussed it and set me up with a Ford driver in similar shoes. He had to bag also and wanted to run all out. I obliged and we ran. BTW: he ran 9.57. I had him sooo covered. Dang!!

Anyway, point I'm making is that it wasn't just Ford's bagging and I'm sure they aren't all bagging for illegitemate reasons. The sandbagging won't go away and I don't think it should anyway. The way I see it is I was running a Ford sandbagger and coulda popped him cause my car was faster(when all is working right) but didn't. IF we had more cars, possibly the field would be a little more aligned on times because everyone knows a slow TR runs 12'sbiggrin. My stocker with 200 worth of mods runs 12.70's. So if we just loaded the field with a bunch of bolt on TR's and LS1 Pontiacs we could get enough wins early on that their fast guys couldn't catch us on wins, bagging or not.

Other side of the equation. If I see another turbo car roll the lights or leave off boost I'm gonna scream. Qualifying is where you find the point your car will leave at without rolling thru. In the final don't push it even harder at the stripe if you've already determined the brakes won't hold it earlier in the day.

You can't win if you don't give yourself a chance to even begin by staying away from going Red. I was totally late in my final but at least I had an excuse as I was turning on fuel pumps I'd turned off to save battery, right as the tree was activating. Rather be a bit late than Red as at least a little late is still in their with a CHANCE to win.

I'm all for advertising this deal everywhere and anywhere we can round up some racers for our camp. Let's start in '09 sometime around June so people can schedule the race as one of those must attend deals and WE WILL get our racer count up. I know I use every chance my business gets to talk the race up. This year I brought two of my customers and they had a blast. Next year I'm gonna try to bring more.

 

[TKGN1]

The breakout rule would be nice, again to keep it honest for both sides and to help those on your side, not sure if it will get changed to that or not.
On the other hand, it would be freakin' awsome to see 150-200 Buicks at this event. One of the reasons I go to this event is to see alot of other Buicks as well as to race, I've met and made lots of Buick friends at this particular event. I would think if we hyped this thing up over the next year we might see a better turn out thus increasing the chances of winning.
If this rule gets implemented or not (I still am for it) having participation IS going to be the reason behind losing or winning.
Lets pump this up, get more involvment from the Buick community, slow cars , fast cars, doesn't matter, lets beat them with attendance. As mrstage1 said, make this a must attend race and I would think there would be a good turnout.

 

[Danster]

Other side of the equation. If I see another turbo car roll the lights or leave off boost I'm gonna scream. Qualifying is where you find the point your car will leave at without rolling thru. In the final don't push it even harder at the stripe if you've already determined the brakes won't hold it earlier in the day.

I didn't make it this year, but last year we had about 12-14 cars who either red lighted or pushed through. We could have probably won last year if all these cars did not red light!

You have have to know your car. Study the Pro Tree. After last car stages (2nd bulb lit) the clock starts (about 3 seconds) and off you go.

Dannyo

 

[Quik Six]

The race results are posted on the OKBuick website and there were 10 Fords, not 40, that ran over 1 second faster than their qualifying time and they won all 10 of these races. Buicks had 8 participants who did the same but only 5 won their races. Redlights on Buick side were down to 4, 2 lost because of breakage and 1 no show.

Look forward to seeing everyone next year and bring a friend or 2 with a fast Buick.

Phil Engle

 

[johnplogii]

I didn't count them all but looks like the buicks sandbagged just as much as the fords. I will try my best to make it next year guys.

John

 

[LSTTYPE]

I have attended Noble for the last 10 years with the exception of this year. With the way Halloween fell and earlier high gas prices, I elected to stay home with the kids and I suspect Im not the only one. One of the reasons I keep coming back is because its a NO excuses heads up race! If we lose folks, its because we did not field the race with enough cars. I think it was 2003 that we won the race something like 57-33. Most of our heavy hitters lost but again our 10,11,12 and 13 second cars won most of their races. I remember one year in particular that we out numbered the fords so bad in terms of car count that there were like 16 Buicks that didnt get to race. The cutoff was 12.70!!!

I would rather lose year after year heads up than have an breakout rule or letting chevys come dominate the race which by the way would exclude 85% of all our Buicks from getting to race. Besides this is the 2nd biggest Buick event in the country secong only to BG nationals. I suggest we all throw in some money and try to sponser a bunch of TSO and TSM guys to come out early and help us dominate. Also there is a large 3800 fwd community that needs to be reached out to as well as the LS1 pontiac crowd. Its gonna take this boards effort to recruit more BOP racers to win this race. Like MR. Stage 1 said, we gotta start early. Dick cant be expected to do it all. Special thanks to Dick Walker for putting this super cool event on year after year.

 

[Quik Six]

LSTTYPE: Thanks for your comments about the event in Noble. It is unfortunate that you were not able to attend this years event.

Your point about using this board as place to recruit racers from the Buick community and the Pontiac community is right on target. I compile and post a list of those individuals that have committed to race at Noble and I asked for names on 3 different message boards. This board had 2 threads about Noble with 2348 views and 136 replies. The other 2 boards had combined total of 246 views and no replies.

Noble is no big secret and you can start recruiting with our vendors. I hit up Jason Cramer about coming every time I order a part and Mike Licht needs to know that Jack Cotton was in Noble this year. Lawrence Connelly was pretty much a regular attendee when he still had his business. We start getting 150 cars and there will be an increase in interest by vendors and the faster cars will come.

I will start the list earlier next year.

Hope to see you and a couple of your friends at Noble next year.

Phil Engle