Almost giving up on 200R4

[Skuli]

Hi guy´s.
I have a Camaro 68 with a 200R4. It´s a transmission from a Monte Carlo 86, which I had locally rebuild here in Iceland. I used a heavy duty kit from Art Carr. After the rebuild it was perfect in almost any way, except that when I pick or step on the gas so that the transmission changes down from third gear to the second, it immediately responses and shifts down, but for two or three seconds it does not find the second gear and revs dramatically and then comes in with the second gear with a considerable slip and most often it ends up spinning the wheels franticly which in some cases can be quite dangerous. However, when this happens and I go off the gas and on it a gain, it goes immediately into the second gear. The TV cable is correctly adjusted and the fluid level is right. It is almost ok when cold, but as soon as it heats up (5 min) it starts doing this. I have already had the valve body rebuild, but no change. The builder thought it was the valve body, but the problem is still there. I don't know if there is any connections, but when it is hot, it always goes into Drive with a considerable clonk. I am a bit lost and no one seems to have a clue what is happening here. If there is anyone out there who recognizes this problem, I would be so grateful if you could help me.
Hope to hear from some genius soon.
Skuli K. Iceland.

 

[mikestertwo]

What code transmission is it? Is it a CZ trans from a SS Monte Carlo? What rear end gears are in the Camaro? Need more info on the build. Is the direct clutch dual fed? Extra clutches? If I'm reading your post correctly you are having late 2-3 shifts and then it slips going into 3rd at WOT? Need to know what the pump pressure is at minimum throttle and WOT.

 

[Skuli]

What code transmission is it? Is it a CZ trans from a SS Monte Carlo? What rear end gears are in the Camaro? Need more info on the build. Is the direct clutch dual fed? Extra clutches? If I'm reading your post correctly you are having late 2-3 shifts and then it slips going into 3rd at WOT? Need to know what the pump pressure is at minimum throttle and WOT.

I am sorry but I don't know the code. I do know that it is not from a SS Monte Carlo. My rear end gears are 3:73.
As far as I know there are extra clutches and the builder had to do a bit of a change on the housing to get them in.
No it's not that I have late shifts. The shifts are perfect and even though I don't know the line pressure, I am pretty sure it is good, as the shifts are at the right time and firm as you want them to be. It's only when you automatically downshift from third to the second gear by stepping on the gas that the transmission seem loosing the second gear for a moment. If I do the shifts manually, then everything is ok.
Br,
Skuli K.

 

[TexasT]

I would at least check the clearance on the servo(round piece on the pass side of the trans). If you aren't using a larger factory servo or after market piece, it might not be able to apply enough force to clamp the band. The band is probably toast so you are probably needing to pull it down and put a new band in. I used a carbon ban and a sonnax servo. I recommend you use them too.

 

[Skuli]

I would at least check the clearance on the servo(round piece on the pass side of the trans). If you aren't using a larger factory servo or after market piece, it might not be able to apply enough force to clamp the band. The band is probably toast so you are probably needing to pull it down and put a new band in. I used a carbon ban and a sonnax servo. I recommend you use them too.

Ok I got you Rich. Its the best idea I have heard so far. So are you saying that even though the transmission works 100% when going from first to the fourth gear in any driving condition, this will only happen during kick down. And if so, what and where do I buy the correct servo and band? I suppose I can install the servo with the transmission in the car, but can I exchange the band without removing it from the car and completely disassemble it?
Your expert help would be highly appreciated.
Thank you Rich.
Regards,
Skúli K. Skúlason

 

[Skuli]

Ok I got you Rich. Its the best idea I have heard so far. So are you saying that even though the transmission works 100% when going from first to the fourth gear in any driving condition, this will only happen during kick down. And if so, what and where do I buy the correct servo and band? I suppose I can install the servo with the transmission in the car, but can I exchange the band without removing it from the car and completely disassemble it?
Your expert help would be highly appreciated.
Thank you Rich.
Regards,
Skúli K. Skúlason

Hi again Rich. Is this the part that I should buy? http://www.sonnax.com/parts/2938-super-hold-servo-kit

 

[larrym]

Do you know if a shift kit was installed and if so which one?
You might want to think about a new separator plate if it's very old or altered the one Chris at CK performance makes is a very nice piece.

 

[bison]

Sounds like a 2nd oil problem. On a 3-2 kickdown the direct clutch releases and the band had to apply at the time the clutch is releasing. It's possible the servo is bottoming out on the case but would be noticeable in 1-2 shifts also


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[Skuli]

Do you know if a shift kit was installed and if so which one?
You might want to think about a new separator plate if it's very old or altered the one Chris at CK performance makes is a very nice piece.

No there is no shift kit installed.

 

[Skuli]

Sounds like a 2nd oil problem. On a 3-2 kickdown the direct clutch releases and the band had to apply at the time the clutch is releasing. It's possible the servo is bottoming out on the case but would be noticeable in 1-2 shifts also


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Yes thank you, I think we agree on the servo. I just checked and it is in deed noticeable in full throttle 1-2 shifts. I will buy a new super servo kit and take my chances with the band, as I can install the servo without taking down the transmission.
Thank you all for a very responsive reaction to my problem.
Best regards,
Skuli K.

 

[bison]

You will need to replace the band and possibly re-surface the drum


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[Skuli]

You will need to replace the band and possibly re-surface the drum


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Is it certen that the band is toasted, even though it is new. Is there no chance that it might be enough to install the super servo kit. Isn't it worth the try, as it can be done without pulling the trans out?

 

[TexasT]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000I...efinements=p_4:Star+Products&pi=SL75_QL70
If you really want to know what Is happening with pressure you need a gauge. I bought this one but there are others.
The link you posted is the servo I used. There are others. You can try it with just the servo but as Bison sez, once it slips the band and drum get "glazed" and that ain't good.
Let us know how you do.

 

[Skuli]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000I182JC/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?qid=1462883681&sr=1-17&refinements=p_4:Star+Products&pi=SL75_QL70
If you really want to know what Is happening with pressure you need a gauge. I bought this one but there are others.
The link you posted is the servo I used. There are others. You can try it with just the servo but as Bison sez, once it slips the band and drum get "glazed" and that ain't good.
Let us know how you do.

Ok thank you Rich. I will go for the new band. I have been looking for the one you mentioned, but I can’t find it. Can you send me a link for it. If Summit Racing has it, it would be convenient for me, but I can’t find it on their web side.
Yes, I will let you all know when finalized.
Thank you all very much for your help.
Skuli K.

 

[ITSAV6]

Summit might have the TCI band. I would suggest getting a "wide" band from one of the vendors.

 

[larrym]

The carbon band is supposed to be the best.

 

[Skuli]

The carbon band is supposed to be the best.

Ok. Would this do. This is the only wide Carbon I can find.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200-4R-200C...Transmission-2nd-Gear-Powerband-/261367927716

 

[David Husek]

Hi guy´s.
I have a Camaro 68 with a 200R4. It´s a transmission from a Monte Carlo 86, which I had locally rebuild here in Iceland. I used a heavy duty kit from Art Carr. After the rebuild it was perfect in almost any way, except that when I pick or step on the gas so that the transmission changes down from third gear to the second, it immediately responses and shifts down, but for two or three seconds it does not find the second gear and revs dramatically and then comes in with the second gear with a considerable slip and most often it ends up spinning the wheels franticly which in some cases can be quite dangerous. However, when this happens and I go off the gas and on it a gain, it goes immediately into the second gear. The TV cable is correctly adjusted and the fluid level is right. It is almost ok when cold, but as soon as it heats up (5 min) it starts doing this. I have already had the valve body rebuild, but no change. The builder thought it was the valve body, but the problem is still there. I don't know if there is any connections, but when it is hot, it always goes into Drive with a considerable clonk. I am a bit lost and no one seems to have a clue what is happening here. If there is anyone out there who recognizes this problem, I would be so grateful if you could help me.
Hope to hear from some genius soon.
Skuli K. Iceland.

What do you have for cooling? A 200-4R needs quite a bit more than any other trans. Most issue are caused by heat in a 200-4R. I do not warranty a trans unless I get confirmation of customers cooling system. The bands seems to be slipping and the spacer plate may not be sealing at check ball locations. Clearance on the Intermediate servo is critical to making the intermediate band survive yet get shift timing correct. If your idle is high with a tight converter, the 200-4R will clunk into gear. This is addressed with using '88 and later forward clutch pack.

Is it certen that the band is toasted, even though it is new. Is there no chance that it might be enough to install the super servo kit. Isn't it worth the try, as it can be done without pulling the trans out?

Once a friction or band is glazed over from heat, the material gets brittle and can no longer breath. This being said, the oil can no longer be absorbed and squeezed out of the material so the band need to be changed. It will just slip. It will do nothing but cause further damage. The same is true for frictions. While you have it apart, check the 4 other clutch packs that are accessible and if any have dark spots on the frictions or heat spots on the steels, they must be replaced. Installing a servo right now may do something, but you have other issue in the unit causing failure. I would replace the separator plate also and install a custom re calibration kit from me.

Ok. Would this do. This is the only wide Carbon I can find.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200-4R-200C...Transmission-2nd-Gear-Powerband-/261367927716

I would not install a wide band. I use the narrow solid material bands in builds like yours. I have my own carbon band I have made and it is the best material I have found. Many builders now use these over the wide. The drum surface needs to be flat when a straight edge is put across it. Replace or machine the drum if this is the case. I can supply you with all the correct parts you need for your repair. Contact me directly.

 

[larrym]

Can't go wrong with Dave's stuff.
And he will take your calls and talk you through it [emoji4]

 

[Skuli]

Can't go wrong with Dave's stuff.
And he will take your calls and talk you through it [emoji4]

Good to hear. I just talked to Dave and he is going to send me his suggestions for parts.
Thank you guy's. You are all so grate.