and then Floor pan removal options
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Ya, I think that is an evercoat product, I think I will be using that on the floors too..Maybe even the factory quarter seam, not sure on that yet.
Called the local shop todayfor the gas and pretty much have to call back tomorow, the man with the answers had left for the day..Some tri -mixture was mentioned , but the receptionist did not know what it was for..
Double check tomorow..
My boss had mentioned some spray to help keep the slag from sticking inside the tip , ever heard of this?
Good stuff guys , thanks so much
Have some reading to do..more so practicing..
Shielding Gas
Well have a little info for the local shielding gas,
If I listened correctly they recomended for mild steel, a oxy,co2, and argon mix.. Does this sound right..I though oxygen was flamable..combustable??? explosive? I didnt ask what percentages they were in, If I go get a bottle I can get into that then..
$125 for a 55cft , and $145 for 80 cft, buy the tank, and exchange basis from there..
Well have a little info for the local shielding gas,
If I listened correctly they recomended for mild steel, a oxy,co2, and argon mix.. Does this sound right..I though oxygen was flamable..combustable??? explosive? I didnt ask what percentages they were in, If I go get a bottle I can get into that then..
$125 for a 55cft , and $145 for 80 cft, buy the tank, and exchange basis from there..
Solid Carbon Steel Welding Wire (ER705-6) is meant to be used with C-25 (75% Argon 25% C02) gas in MIG Applications. Straight Argon is used for MIG Welding Aluminum and a tri-mix of Helium/Argon/C02 is used for MIG Welding Stainless Steel.
Never heard of that mix they are proposing and can't find it mentioned anywhere in the books and technical stuff I've been reading to learn how to weld. I'm not saying I'm the definitive source on the matter but if you go look around yourself you will see that C-25 gas mix is what's recommended and used for MIG welding Mild Steel. Have a look here.
The size cylinder you get will depend on how much welding your going to be doing and how often you want to refill it. They are usually measured in Cubic Feet (cu foot) with 20,40,60, and 80 being the common sizes. The larger the number obviously the more cubic feet of gas it can hold. But remember your working with thin sheet metal on cars. It's not like industrial welding where you see the guy strike and arc on one side and weld continously to the other. If you tried that with thin sheet metal you'll warp the pieces like a pretzel. MIG welding is more of a stop and start kind of thing. So you won't run through so much of the shielding gas.
Remember the bigger the cylinder the heaver it's going to be. Your going to need to way to either move it along with the welder to get to where you need to work. Or get a longer hose that connects from the cylinder to the machine.
If you buy the cylinder then what are you exchanging? Again I only rent the cylinder and when I need a refill they just give me a another cylinder already refilled. That's the exchange. I pay for a yearly rental and per refill.
Never heard of that mix they are proposing and can't find it mentioned anywhere in the books and technical stuff I've been reading to learn how to weld. I'm not saying I'm the definitive source on the matter but if you go look around yourself you will see that C-25 gas mix is what's recommended and used for MIG welding Mild Steel. Have a look here.
The size cylinder you get will depend on how much welding your going to be doing and how often you want to refill it. They are usually measured in Cubic Feet (cu foot) with 20,40,60, and 80 being the common sizes. The larger the number obviously the more cubic feet of gas it can hold. But remember your working with thin sheet metal on cars. It's not like industrial welding where you see the guy strike and arc on one side and weld continously to the other. If you tried that with thin sheet metal you'll warp the pieces like a pretzel. MIG welding is more of a stop and start kind of thing. So you won't run through so much of the shielding gas.
Remember the bigger the cylinder the heaver it's going to be. Your going to need to way to either move it along with the welder to get to where you need to work. Or get a longer hose that connects from the cylinder to the machine.
If you buy the cylinder then what are you exchanging? Again I only rent the cylinder and when I need a refill they just give me a another cylinder already refilled. That's the exchange. I pay for a yearly rental and per refill.
I did read a little in that link you first sent..The Oxy is like a 2% ..I am sure this place carries other mixtures..Ya I am unfamiliar with how tall a 55 or 80 cuft tank would be, but it seems like tey may be bigger than what I am lookng for..
Going to call a couple others to compare..
Ya the exchange is kinda strange.Pay once for a tank , you get a filled tank when you need a refill..Guess its kinda like a deposit to cover the tank in a way..dont know..
Maybe the other places will work differently..
Going to call a couple others to compare..
Ya the exchange is kinda strange.Pay once for a tank , you get a filled tank when you need a refill..Guess its kinda like a deposit to cover the tank in a way..dont know..
Maybe the other places will work differently..
MAybe should start a new thread
think I will, so any newbie welders can learn from my mistakes ha ha..
Plug welding is going to be tricky..
Started pracicing on a pre drilled piece of scrap 3/8" holes..didnt quite get the technique , i read later i need to circle aroud once the pool of weld is almost compltete..,
None of my pools ever touched the inside of the hole of the top piece..Penetration seamed ok, maybe too much..
think I will, so any newbie welders can learn from my mistakes ha ha..
Plug welding is going to be tricky..
Started pracicing on a pre drilled piece of scrap 3/8" holes..didnt quite get the technique , i read later i need to circle aroud once the pool of weld is almost compltete..,
None of my pools ever touched the inside of the hole of the top piece..Penetration seamed ok, maybe too much..
Yeah plug welding is tricky, I still can't get em right. I think my biggest problem is that I can't see the hole when I'm welding.
When welding a seam or on a line your suppose to have the tip angled between 10 and 30 degrees. So it's easier to see.
Plug welds are supposed to be done (or so I'm told) holding the gun at 90 degrees to the hole.
When welding a seam or on a line your suppose to have the tip angled between 10 and 30 degrees. So it's easier to see.
Plug welds are supposed to be done (or so I'm told) holding the gun at 90 degrees to the hole.
Poor pics
HArd to get an up close shot..
If I coulda got the shot better , you would see I never reached the outside diameter of the hole..I stayed in one spot only , guess i needed to make that final contact between the pool and the outer edge of the upper pieces hole.
HArd to get an up close shot..
If I coulda got the shot better , you would see I never reached the outside diameter of the hole..I stayed in one spot only , guess i needed to make that final contact between the pool and the outer edge of the upper pieces hole.
Attachments
Finally Really Cutting the old floor out
Hey Morbid, Just trying to read your input on the floor pan cuts..
Now reading the part where you mention "after remving seat brackets , I will see the spot welds on the rocker sides"...I am assuming you made your cut right there at that upper corner, not messing with the top side of the rocker at all????
So the s pot welds on the very top side of the inner rocker just before the outer rocker lip, what exactly is that spot welded too?
Unless I am calling the body parts wrong??? Ex. "inner rocker"
Hey Morbid, Just trying to read your input on the floor pan cuts..
Now reading the part where you mention "after remving seat brackets , I will see the spot welds on the rocker sides"...I am assuming you made your cut right there at that upper corner, not messing with the top side of the rocker at all????
So the s pot welds on the very top side of the inner rocker just before the outer rocker lip, what exactly is that spot welded too?
Unless I am calling the body parts wrong??? Ex. "inner rocker"
I think I mis-spoke cause you probably could leave the seat braces in and still remove the pans. This would require you to cut the whole floor pan down the middle of the tunnel.
None of the factory shop manuals I have show pics but it's reasonable to assume that the floor went in to the chassis first, then the braces.
The floor pans are spot welded to the rocker/sill whatever that piece of metal is that runs along the inside of the doors. Then again at the very top of the front lip
When you took the seats out and pulled up the carpet, you should've seen a flat black piece of rubber/plastic conduit (right inside the door). This contains the wires for the rear body (speakers, lights, fuel gauge etc.) I'm not sure if this is the inner rocker or another piece attached to it.
Once you pull that up you will see the actual horizontal piece of the floor pan. It runs the whole length of the pan front to back. You'll see the spot welds on top there. You drill the spot welds out (using a spot weld bit) and separate the sheet metal with a seam splitter or similar tool.
Now look down from this ledge (we'll call it) toward where the seat belt anchor is on the inside of the car. Looking forward from there you will see some more spot welds that need to be drilled out.
As you get toward the hinge pillar (just inside the front of the doors, along the sill we were just talking about) you will see the lip of the lower part of inner hinge pillar. This is were the kick panels are normally.
There's a lip to it that has spot welds in it. I suspect because it's spot welded to the floor pan.
Moving slightly up from there you'll see the "foot pad" the raised rectangular shape. Underneath this is a plate which contains the top side of the body mount (we spoke about this before).
You don't want to cut that plate underneath the floor pan there. On the inner side of the "foot pad" there are some spot welds. That is how the floor pan is spot welded to that plate there. I'm not sure about the outer side that would be next to the kick panel.
From there the top part of the floor pan is spot welded at a lip which is attached to the firewall and runs that way from one side of the car to the other. Getting at that lip with the engine and dash in is something I choose not to undertake.
I don't know what your intentions are and have not seen what your working on. I can tell you (by experience) that having to crawl under the dash and steering wheel to both remove the sheet metal and then fit and re-weld new stuff gives a whole new meaning to discomfort and pain. I'm 5'9" and 180 pounds and I had had a helluva time doing it. Throw in a welding helmet and things really get interesting.
My point is if you don't have to go up the toe board toward the firewall then don't.
Sorry for the long explanation/post but I hope it helps.
Greg
None of the factory shop manuals I have show pics but it's reasonable to assume that the floor went in to the chassis first, then the braces.
The floor pans are spot welded to the rocker/sill whatever that piece of metal is that runs along the inside of the doors. Then again at the very top of the front lip
When you took the seats out and pulled up the carpet, you should've seen a flat black piece of rubber/plastic conduit (right inside the door). This contains the wires for the rear body (speakers, lights, fuel gauge etc.) I'm not sure if this is the inner rocker or another piece attached to it.
Once you pull that up you will see the actual horizontal piece of the floor pan. It runs the whole length of the pan front to back. You'll see the spot welds on top there. You drill the spot welds out (using a spot weld bit) and separate the sheet metal with a seam splitter or similar tool.
Now look down from this ledge (we'll call it) toward where the seat belt anchor is on the inside of the car. Looking forward from there you will see some more spot welds that need to be drilled out.
As you get toward the hinge pillar (just inside the front of the doors, along the sill we were just talking about) you will see the lip of the lower part of inner hinge pillar. This is were the kick panels are normally.
There's a lip to it that has spot welds in it. I suspect because it's spot welded to the floor pan.
Moving slightly up from there you'll see the "foot pad" the raised rectangular shape. Underneath this is a plate which contains the top side of the body mount (we spoke about this before).
You don't want to cut that plate underneath the floor pan there. On the inner side of the "foot pad" there are some spot welds. That is how the floor pan is spot welded to that plate there. I'm not sure about the outer side that would be next to the kick panel.
From there the top part of the floor pan is spot welded at a lip which is attached to the firewall and runs that way from one side of the car to the other. Getting at that lip with the engine and dash in is something I choose not to undertake.
I don't know what your intentions are and have not seen what your working on. I can tell you (by experience) that having to crawl under the dash and steering wheel to both remove the sheet metal and then fit and re-weld new stuff gives a whole new meaning to discomfort and pain. I'm 5'9" and 180 pounds and I had had a helluva time doing it. Throw in a welding helmet and things really get interesting.
My point is if you don't have to go up the toe board toward the firewall then don't.
Sorry for the long explanation/post but I hope it helps.
Greg
No need for sorry, I appreciate the detail, and your Time trust me..
Ya, I'm just mixed up in some body terms..There are so many layers on these cars, what with inner and outer this and that and body mounts added into the mix..
Believe me, I realized this when I was drilling the spot welds on the back glass to seperate the quarters..and the upper roof to quarter seam, talk about a puzzle..
Guess I should explain a little better..The GN is just about totaly stripped interior/exterior....
I will have access to the firewall/toe board seam(no motor/front clip)..I have decided to go with two pans , left and right , leaving the hump and shifter brackets alone..
I am aware about the triangular front body mount area..I do have some rot over the floor in that area on the pass side.. And regardless of what we call it now, when we are talking mid rocker area, just beside the seat brackets, the top side or sill(where the flat loom for the wires lays upon ) ..
Still usure of where you are cutting along this sill ?
If you are drilling these spot welds on top, I assume you are cutting almost all lthe way over to the spot welded lip for the outer rocker(where the plastic loom clips onto)??
Sorry to be so confusing, just trying to get it right before I start cutting.
I am pretty content with all cuts but the sill sides..Just need to understand this move and should be all set..
Unless I am way off and there is no need of a cut, do the sides just lift up from the rocker after all the spots welds are popped???
Guess I have been calling this "sill " area the inner rocker , but i guess that is on top of the innner rocker?
Thanks so much...
Ya, I'm just mixed up in some body terms..There are so many layers on these cars, what with inner and outer this and that and body mounts added into the mix..
Believe me, I realized this when I was drilling the spot welds on the back glass to seperate the quarters..and the upper roof to quarter seam, talk about a puzzle..
Guess I should explain a little better..The GN is just about totaly stripped interior/exterior....
I will have access to the firewall/toe board seam(no motor/front clip)..I have decided to go with two pans , left and right , leaving the hump and shifter brackets alone..
I am aware about the triangular front body mount area..I do have some rot over the floor in that area on the pass side.. And regardless of what we call it now, when we are talking mid rocker area, just beside the seat brackets, the top side or sill(where the flat loom for the wires lays upon ) ..
Still usure of where you are cutting along this sill ?
If you are drilling these spot welds on top, I assume you are cutting almost all lthe way over to the spot welded lip for the outer rocker(where the plastic loom clips onto)??
Sorry to be so confusing, just trying to get it right before I start cutting.
I am pretty content with all cuts but the sill sides..Just need to understand this move and should be all set..
Unless I am way off and there is no need of a cut, do the sides just lift up from the rocker after all the spots welds are popped???
Guess I have been calling this "sill " area the inner rocker , but i guess that is on top of the innner rocker?
Thanks so much...
Okay, let's come at it from a different angle. A picture they say is worth a thousand words. So lookey here.
That picture was taken with the drivers door open looking straight down. You see the black conduit? What it is resting on top of is the outer edge of the floor pan on that side of the car.
Your not cutting nothing there, no need.
You drill the spot welds out here and separate the pan from the piece of sheet metal underneath.
Now then, from that same location start looking down toward the bottom of the floor pan. Along it's side and towards the bottom you will more spot welds. Drill them out and again separate the pan.
If you were to get the car up in the air and look at the rocker area from underneath you will see what is essentially a "brace" that comes off the inner rocker and "cradles" the outer bottom edge of the floor pan. It has what we might call "fingers"
Summing it all up, at the sides the floor pan is spot welded on top to this brace (where the conduit is by the doors) and on the bottom/sides.
Remember the objective here. You only want to separate the panel from the structural support. If you cut the support and don't have another to put in it's place, what will you weld the replacement panel to?
Since your not taking the tunnel out then the only "cutting" you need to do is on that side and maybe in the rear area (depending if your doing anything with the back seat part).
All cars that were every made the body is just a series of panels "stamped" out and spot welded together. If your replacing a "section" of a panel you cut. If your replacing the entire panel you drill the spot welds out and remove the panels.
That picture was taken with the drivers door open looking straight down. You see the black conduit? What it is resting on top of is the outer edge of the floor pan on that side of the car.
Your not cutting nothing there, no need.
You drill the spot welds out here and separate the pan from the piece of sheet metal underneath.
Now then, from that same location start looking down toward the bottom of the floor pan. Along it's side and towards the bottom you will more spot welds. Drill them out and again separate the pan.
If you were to get the car up in the air and look at the rocker area from underneath you will see what is essentially a "brace" that comes off the inner rocker and "cradles" the outer bottom edge of the floor pan. It has what we might call "fingers"
Summing it all up, at the sides the floor pan is spot welded on top to this brace (where the conduit is by the doors) and on the bottom/sides.
Remember the objective here. You only want to separate the panel from the structural support. If you cut the support and don't have another to put in it's place, what will you weld the replacement panel to?
Since your not taking the tunnel out then the only "cutting" you need to do is on that side and maybe in the rear area (depending if your doing anything with the back seat part).
All cars that were every made the body is just a series of panels "stamped" out and spot welded together. If your replacing a "section" of a panel you cut. If your replacing the entire panel you drill the spot welds out and remove the panels.
Yep, we are talking about the same area..I guess then the edge of that panel just apears to be one piece.. I am assuming it is just tucked in there under the seam sealer before the lip , or the flange, (the part that sticks straight up, just like the firewall to foot board joint)? What do we call this ?
I'll take a pic , lol..And break out the labels..Hope this isnt getting frustrating.
I'll take a pic , lol..And break out the labels..Hope this isnt getting frustrating.
Ok , I'll take your word for it, just wanted to be sure...I ve looked at that floor a bajillion times, and I even have the donor floor cut out laying on its side(rocker and all)
I can see the body mount bracket in that area, and where ther spots welds for that brace are.. Its just when I look on top, it looks like the the area we are alking about only seperates at the outer rocker lip..
But I will go for it..
Thanks for being patient ..Its hard over the net..
I can see the body mount bracket in that area, and where ther spots welds for that brace are.. Its just when I look on top, it looks like the the area we are alking about only seperates at the outer rocker lip..
But I will go for it..
Thanks for being patient ..Its hard over the net..
No worries here friend. I started doing bodywork on this car years ago and couldn't of got the information I have without a little learning and a lot of questions. So I'm just continuing the cycle. :biggrin:
It stopped raining enough for me to go out and have a look see at what's getting you caught up.
That vertical seam we are talking about. Right where the door closes. The outside of it is the Outer Rocker. The Inside of it must be the Inner Rocker. It's not part of the floor pan.
After you remove the conduit you will see some Black "Seam Sealer" at the bottom of this vertical seam we are talking about.
If you scrap that out you will see that the outer edge of the floor pan actually was bent at a 90 degree angle and fitted down into a gap that is there. Hence the seam sealer.
So what it looks like Buick did was place the Inner Rocker panel (the vertical part of it's lip is what you see those spots welds to the Outer Rocker.
Drop in the Floor Pan then attach that brace I was telling you about before.
So I guess your right you will have to do some cutting, when I separated the floor pan at the side. I drilled out the spot welds then used my air chisel with a panel/sheet metal cutting bit and went right up the seam. I'll probably have to go back and clean things up with a grinder later.
Some people just cut the floor pan along the top most portion of the tub, leaving the horizontal piece at the rocker alone. Then place the new pan on top. Something I don't recommend.
Now as to how you would get that seam separated so you could drop your pan from the donor car in there I don't know. My aftermarket pans didn't come with that 90 degree bend so I never worried about it.
I'm guessing that if you drilled out the spot welds from the inside on that vertical seam we are talking about (where it attaches to the outer rocker panel) and then looked underneath for the similar spot welds you could take the whole shabang out. Inner rocker, brace and then by extension that edge of the floor pan.
But you would also need to open up the quarter panel and the bottom and the Hinge Pillar reinforcement since the rockers run into those.
Greg
It stopped raining enough for me to go out and have a look see at what's getting you caught up.
That vertical seam we are talking about. Right where the door closes. The outside of it is the Outer Rocker. The Inside of it must be the Inner Rocker. It's not part of the floor pan.
After you remove the conduit you will see some Black "Seam Sealer" at the bottom of this vertical seam we are talking about.
If you scrap that out you will see that the outer edge of the floor pan actually was bent at a 90 degree angle and fitted down into a gap that is there. Hence the seam sealer.
So what it looks like Buick did was place the Inner Rocker panel (the vertical part of it's lip is what you see those spots welds to the Outer Rocker.
Drop in the Floor Pan then attach that brace I was telling you about before.
So I guess your right you will have to do some cutting, when I separated the floor pan at the side. I drilled out the spot welds then used my air chisel with a panel/sheet metal cutting bit and went right up the seam. I'll probably have to go back and clean things up with a grinder later.
Some people just cut the floor pan along the top most portion of the tub, leaving the horizontal piece at the rocker alone. Then place the new pan on top. Something I don't recommend.
Now as to how you would get that seam separated so you could drop your pan from the donor car in there I don't know. My aftermarket pans didn't come with that 90 degree bend so I never worried about it.
I'm guessing that if you drilled out the spot welds from the inside on that vertical seam we are talking about (where it attaches to the outer rocker panel) and then looked underneath for the similar spot welds you could take the whole shabang out. Inner rocker, brace and then by extension that edge of the floor pan.
But you would also need to open up the quarter panel and the bottom and the Hinge Pillar reinforcement since the rockers run into those.
Greg
"If you scrap that out you will see that the outer edge of the floor pan actually was bent at a 90 degree angle and fitted down into a gap that is there. Hence the seam sealer."
Ahhh, this is what I was looking for..But like you say, it most likely is spotwelded down below where it is tucked in...If that is the case, that would be too much work, more than needed I am guessing..I dont want to have to mess with my rockers, even though the quarters will be coming off..
I think, though for the purpose of giving back, I am going to try to snap some shots for the floor..the way I cut the floor of the donor car You can actually see the cross section of the rocker and floor area..I may even try to pull a donor rocker off and take a pic to see if we cant see that tucked in lip..
Thanks Greg
Ahhh, this is what I was looking for..But like you say, it most likely is spotwelded down below where it is tucked in...If that is the case, that would be too much work, more than needed I am guessing..I dont want to have to mess with my rockers, even though the quarters will be coming off..
I think, though for the purpose of giving back, I am going to try to snap some shots for the floor..the way I cut the floor of the donor car You can actually see the cross section of the rocker and floor area..I may even try to pull a donor rocker off and take a pic to see if we cant see that tucked in lip..
Thanks Greg
I'm not sure if the pan would be spot welded again at the end of the bend. Remember it's spot welded along the top and along the bottom/side of the tub to that brace.
The DS of my project was so rotted in that area I really didn't have too much good metal to work with.
I'm heading down to see a fellow board member next weekend to get the rest of the floor pans I need and some other stuff of a roller he has.
I was just out washing my Daily Driver ('05 Audi A4 Ultrasport 1/8T M) and was thinking about this little scenario.
I'm going to look and see if we can figure out how that whole seam area is fitted up before we start cutting. Maybe do what you did and take the whole shabang rockers and all.
Glad we got this sorted, so you can continue on with your project.
The DS of my project was so rotted in that area I really didn't have too much good metal to work with.
I'm heading down to see a fellow board member next weekend to get the rest of the floor pans I need and some other stuff of a roller he has.
I was just out washing my Daily Driver ('05 Audi A4 Ultrasport 1/8T M) and was thinking about this little scenario.
I'm going to look and see if we can figure out how that whole seam area is fitted up before we start cutting. Maybe do what you did and take the whole shabang rockers and all.
Glad we got this sorted, so you can continue on with your project.
