Another 11 Sec HOTAIR

[Jerryl]

i just wish we had more data for these intakes. the real problem is getting the intake charge temp down. im running 208 ish the hole 1/4 mile pass.

That does not sound too bad at all actually, based on 10F/lb boost.
What boost level and was this with 100% meth?

Very True and the alcohol doesn't do anything shot into the intake either for cooling, have been told if you can make it a vapor that will have a cooling effect. We relocated the nozzle and nothing, this is one of those things that would make a huge difference in gain to.

The HA intake was designed with "injection" in mind and "should" be superior in meth vaporization.
I have no "real life data" (yet), so I do not know.
Where was the nozzle relocation from/to?

 

[cwmccray]

Maybe water might be better than alky. Leeo would be the expert in this area. I think he use aeromist nozzles to change the spray to a mist. Leeo sprayed alky into the turbo and into the turbo adapter. Maybe Leeo or BigDaddy will chime in. Back in the day water was used before alky be came popular. I am steadly taking notes and from what I have observed the Buick Engineers went different on the 86-87 intakes. This is why I am going to use a 86 intake modified. A few years back when everyone was cutting the hotair intake apart, I actually bought a gutted intake and shoved a heater core into the intake. I got it rigged up but could not decide whether to run coolant or nitrous through it. Later I plain gave up.

2008 I plan to have my car running as a test bed. I am curious to know how much alky, water, intercooling and nitrous is worth on a HOTAIR. In theory, both Jamie and Brent have opened a can of worms. Leeo started and got his car in the mid 11's with a 231, later going to a 4.1 into the 10's. If a small block can run 10's, 9's and 8's with a turbo and a carb, a fuel injected 231 should eclipse 10's and even the 9's. Even money on both Jamie and Brent going into the 10's with a 231.

I think it would be easy with a 86-87 intake only because Buick saw something that convinced them that it was better. Even without a intercooler, the 86 intake has a bonnet that can be utilized to inject alky, water and even nitrous.

The late Bruce Plecan was ahead of his time when he took off his intercooler and sprayed alky in the place of his intercooler. Taking the intercooler out allowed less restrictions, lower boost and the same power.

Most people cringe at the NOS word. Alot of the import crowd use it and have set records with NOS. My first time with NOS was a kick in the AZZ... I beat many 86-87 GN's, Trans Camaros and Rugstang using a 80 hp NOS. As time and technology went on to the 90's, I did not get greedy and up the NOS. I would only use it to launch as most imports do. Now that we have talented people such as Eric Marshall burning chips and Julio - alky, I would try it again with alky and NOS in small doses. I had a KenneBell 85 Nitrous chip. Jim Bell told me had only sold 3. I could be wrong but I think Terry Penner used one on his 11 sec NOS Hot Air.

Jim and Zack Willet are going against the grain and taking off the HOT AIR intake and putting on a carb and a bonnet. This could prove to be very interesting.

As technology progesses, I think someone on this board will figure out how to get a HOT AIR into the low 10's/ high 9's.

 

[Boost231]

That does not sound too bad at all actually, based on 10F/lb boost.
What boost level and was this with 100% meth?




The HA intake was designed with "injection" in mind and "should" be superior in meth vaporization.
I have no "real life data" (yet), so I do not know.
Where was the nozzle relocation from/to?

it was about 25 pounds no alky. i put the alky on and i didnt see any drop at all. i havent posted any data yet till i collect more. from what i have seen so far its going to be interesting thread.

 

[Jerryl]

Cool!

 

[Boost231]

WOW.
Interesting.

i will keep everyone posted. im going back to just a straight pump gas chip going to work on the tune and collect data then im going back to and alky chip and going to tune and collect data then im going to get a 110+Alky chip and coolect data. i will keep everyone posted.

 

[Boost231]

i will keep everyone posted. im going back to just a straight pump gas chip going to work on the tune and collect data then im going back to and alky chip and going to tune and collect data then im going to get a 110+Alky chip and coolect data. i will keep everyone posted.

thanks jerryl. i cant wait to put the data togther.

 

[turbo6x2]

From what I've read Methanol should have the most cooling effect and we were running the alcohol directly into the intake into the runners that are in our intakes.(as Lee was doing)However Lee was actually using the Meth to offset his fuel as well since he didn't run 110 octane at all times to my understanding. (he generally mixed 93 octane with race fuel from what I understand) Thus the alcohol would be the added octane in his set up. All my car did was correct the fuel curve for the added fuel and no cooling effect of the intake took place. Speaking with our friend running a super charger on his GS he said they saw the most cooling effect from the meth being a vapor rather then a direct mist thus suggested us moving the injection at least 3 feet from the intake, we relocated and again the car seen it as added fuel and no temp drop in the intake. This was on 30 different passes overall thus I would suggest that the data speaks for itself and I have a lot of data from my system to accurately monitor this condition. If there is a way to decrease the temp in the intake that works effectively I see this being a huge gain for the hot air. I know when my car's intake did cool off a degree or two we did see increases in performance, imagine what a 20 degree change could obtain.

 

[Jerryl]

From what I've read Methanol should have the most cooling effect and we were running the alcohol directly into the intake into the runners that are in our intakes.(as Lee was doing)

However Lee was actually using the Meth to offset his fuel as well since he didn't run 110 octane at all times to my understanding. (he generally mixed 93 octane with race fuel from what I understand) Thus the alcohol would be the added octane in his set up. All my car did was correct the fuel curve for the added fuel and no cooling effect of the intake took place.

Speaking with our friend running a super charger on his GS he said they saw the most cooling effect from the meth being a vapor rather then a direct mist thus suggested us moving the injection at least 3 feet from the intake, we relocated and again the car seen it as added fuel and no temp drop in the intake. This was on 30 different passes overall thus I would suggest that the data speaks for itself and I have a lot of data from my system to accurately monitor this condition.

If there is a way to decrease the temp in the intake that works effectively I see this being a huge gain for the hot air. I know when my car's intake did cool off a degree or two we did see increases in performance, imagine what a 20 degree change could obtain.

Thanks for sharing!
Had no idea that Meth had little to no effect on charge temps.
Wonder why. ,since data will not lie.

Edit:
How many ounces do you spray in a run?

 

[Boost231]

Thanks for sharing!
Had no idea that Meth had little to no effect on charge temps.
Wonder why. ,since data will not lie.

Edit:
How many ounces do you spray in a run?

im glad jamie posted that up. i didnt want to post that info as i have seen the same data. this is going to open a can of worms.

 

[turbo6x2]

We're are using the aqua nozzles that Lee recommended and I know the setting really didn't matter then more I shot in the more it just pulled from the fuel curve and no cooling effect at all. This was with new methanol too, not something sitting around for any period of time. Not sure what the psi was on the nozzles off hand but this may be why GM never implemented the runners for cooling the cars and instead jumped directly to an intercooler? I know at wide open on the alcohol it's quite a stream coming out and we really didnt' want to keep effecting the fuel curve if it wasn't going to cool.

 

[Boost231]

how about some nitrous?

 

[Jerryl]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/125732-running-no-intercooler.html

 

[Alky V6]

To suggest that methanol has no cooling effect is wrong. Your test procedure is flawed. Methanol has a very high latent heat of vaporization property. That just does not change. It is a chemical property of methanol.

You need to understand the point at which methanol cools, or I should say, absorbs heat energy from the surroundings. It happens as it changes physical state from a liquid to a gas. Depending on where and how you are spraying it, methanol may not change state until on the compression stroke inside the cylinder. Although, the way you guys are spraying it, I would expect some vaporization inside the inlet tract, especially with the high IATs you guys are running. Maybe the temp sensor is placed in a bad spot to catch the main air stream.

 

[Lee Thompson]

Fwiw

I am positive that methanol cools the intake runners. You would need your MAT sensor down stream of the alky which I never had on my 85 setup. On my current setup with the MAT sensor in the back of bonnett, my temps start dropping just after 60 ft. mark and continue to drop all the way. With outside temp @ 70 I will see 57-58 degrees @ the end. I installed 2 Aquimist nozzles on a friends 87 right after I started using methanol on my 85. After a short blast we got out and the up pipe was COLD.

 

[Boost231]

I am positive that methanol cools the intake runners. You would need your MAT sensor down stream of the alky which I never had on my 85 setup. On my current setup with the MAT sensor in the back of bonnett, my temps start dropping just after 60 ft. mark and continue to drop all the way. With outside temp @ 70 I will see 57-58 degrees @ the end. I installed 2 Aquimist nozzles on a friends 87 right after I started using methanol on my 85. After a short blast we got out and the up pipe was COLD.

maybe i have bad meth. or something. my temp sensor is right before the #1 cylinder. that gives alot of area for the alky to cover before getting to the sensor. how much alky do you need to spray to see and effect. i havent seen any. maybe if i spray alot and cut fuel way back. i can show you a log from my power logger of it spraying and i can show you one not and there is no change in the temp at that sensor.

 

[6SENSE]

From playing with different mixtures way back when I do know that straight h2o quenched detonation quite effectively. I would turn up the boost and couldnt get any kr. However I stopped turning up at a point since I could also feel that there was a loss in overall power compared to using the alky. Car just wouldnt take off. There was probably more to be done with tuning the h2o in.
Anyway, I played with h2o, denatured, isopropyl, methanol, and various mixtures. The straight meth hands down, more easily it seemed, yielded the most promising results. Thats what I stuck with at a point.
Also, my understanding has always been that the cooling effect on the cylinder temps was the goal with alky injection. Of course if your intake temps are cooler I guess the cylinder temps would be also. However I wouldnt underestimate the cooling ability and heat absorption qualities of the alky at the cylinders where it ultimately counts.
I have no doubt that there is a definite cooling effect going on. Im sure that the alky definitely gives a little added bang with the en richening it supplies as well. If I remember correctly (could be wrong) h2o has the best heat absorbing properties? Doesnt have the power adder that the alky does though through en richening the fuel.
If your running the higher octane race fuels not sure if there is any benefit to the alky injection though. With lower octane their obviously is. Thinking about that, the lower octane fuels have higher btu making possible for more power if you can keep the detonation at bay. So if you were able to supply enough fuel using 93 octane, would tuning with straight h2o injection for detonation be the way to go? Like I said I guess I didnt play with it enough, but I do know that those competition monster torque pulling tractors inject straight h2o.

 

[turbo6x2]

Haven't been on here since last post-The sensor is in the intake and is being read by the fuel manangement system, the most we could see is a 1 degree drop. (this is with the dial set on 8) However since the intake temp is so high to begin with it may be why no significant drop was recorded. (could be evaporating due to the heat) Had hoped to see it drop significantly. I have been speaking with a friend who knows Steve Morris very well and some ideas are being tossed around to see if there is a better way to spray the meth to get the intake charge cooled. If anything further develops I'll keep you posted.

 

[Jerryl]

........ Haven't been on here since last post-The sensor is in the intake and is being read by the fuel manangement system, the most we could see is a 1 degree drop. (this is with the dial set on 8) However since the intake temp is so high to begin with it may be why no significant drop was recorded. (could be evaporating due to the heat) ..........

What was the recorded temp/boost?
Without complete evaporation, there is minimal temp reduction.

 

[Boost231]

im right around 208 @ 20psi.

 

[Jerryl]

im right around 208 @ 20psi.

Alky temp reduction must be working --- I think
Rule of thumb is 10 degrees increase for each psi boost.
So, 20 PSI could result in charge temp around; Ambient + (10 x boost)
If ambient was 60F, you are seeing right around a 60F temp drop. ... I think
But thinking keeps getting me in trouble.