any 12 sec recipies for the college budget?

[WFO]

normal street timing is around 18-20º.race timing is between 22-28º

normal street boost is between 16-20#,depending on a lot of factors.race boost is 22-30+ psi.

the difference is the octane.

herb has gone 12.8x's with a tune that could be run on the street.no intercooler.i'd like to see him turn it up and go for it.

turbo6x2 has gone 12.3x with a good 60' and a similar setup in race trim.

those are both non-intercooled cars with heads/cam/intake.

let's also not forget that a crappy 60' time is worth a couple mph.i'm not real sure why,but spinning off the line will usually increase the trap speed,and vice-versa.

 

[turbo6x2]

Originally posted by cool 84
You can go 12s in a pure hotair, people or one person has gone 10s in a hotair. But it's not cost effective. I'm sure 12s are possible in street trim but it requires a lot more in parts. To me, as soon as you say "street trim", an intercooler becomes mandatory if you want good times.

I disagree. In fact I've proven you don't need no stickin intercooler to run low 12's. And what does putting race fuel in with DOT tires really effect, street performance? (relatively speaking I can get a lot of passes in for what one of your intercooler set ups run) Not sure I follow how this is some drastic change?? And I would have to say my 60' was quite impressive. What would you know about my cost in this project anyways... I don't think you have that information or knowledge? John I have been emailing you and will try to help you out with the information we have gathered. I have people who can more the verify my times. And I've done 12.30's more then just once... Some people's kids....LOL

 

[cool 84]

You're all acting like a bunch of thin skinned bitches.

You more than prove my point. 106mph @ 25psi boost or would you rather have 110mph at 13psi? The guy wanted street trim times. I don't consider C-16 and DOT slicks street trim. I'm curious, what does your car run on pump gas? Will it break 100mph? I can run my car easy and take out 90% of the cars I encounter on the street and if I need to I can always run race gas but the point is I get up in the morning and drive a 12 second car everyday. You drive a 13 second car at best in everyday trim. 106mph on racegas will barely pull a stock LS1 from a roll. Sorry, but I don't feel like worrying about stock Camaros when I'm out.

My point about cost was that an intercooler is cheaper than cam/heads and will give you a larger gain. Maybe you've forgotten I've been there, done that 5 years ago so don't act like you're breaking new ground here. Once the car is up and running with the new setup I'll make a couple passes with the IC bypassed so you guys can feel good about yourselves.

 

[mycarsucks]

Hey guys could we keep this a bit more civil?

If you so choose to not run an IC then that is a personal choice. If you so choose to run an IC it is a personal choice.

I would say that cool 84 was just offering his opinion that he believes that an IC is the best bang for the buck mod that the person could use. He was trying to help the guy.

Personally I am an IC guy as well. I have little pride when it comes to going fast. I mean really guys, we all drive Buick Regals. Most people would laugh at you for that if they didn't see the car. I have no problems adding an aftermarket IC than I do and aftermarket turbo.

Cool 84 has given me lot's of what I consider sound advice over the years, but so has WFO and I respect both of them for it. I have gotten in a pretty good argument with Cool 84 but I think that post probably got deleted, so don't think i side with him because i like him.


---Back to Tech----
racemybuick: You mention that you would like to hit the 12s with the most economy and safest. I really think to do this you might wan't to give an IC another look. I paid less than 500 for my entire FMIC setup, and I believe it far superior to the stock 86-87 setup. The FMIC has been proven to around 133 mph. I would also feel safer running lower boost or the same amount of boost at a colder intake charge. I really don't want to blow my gaskets.

Also, just like with a turbo motor, most mods you do to your car after IC will have better improvement vs if you did them with no IC.

Personally I chose a hot-air car because when I did some research i thought that I could convert most of its poor parts to those that were better than an 86-87 for much less the cost of those vehicles. I did find that the ECM conversion is going to be more costly than I had thought, but even with that and a better intake i would be well below the cost of a stock IC car.

I plan to put down some pretty good numbers on a low budget. I would like some critique of this combo but haven't been able to get some.

Stock Motor/Heads/Intake
Stock ECM/Caspers Thumbwheel ($50)
Stock 86/87 turbo no integral wastegate ($175)
External wastegate ($150-$170 new if i go new less used)
Ford Front Mount (total less than $500)
Propane Injection and high boost ($200 I got a special deal)

With this combo I think I should easily hit very low 13's and possiby even high 12's with a lot of tuning. I of course will not hae anything to back this up as we have no tracks. What do you guys think?

 

[WFO]

Originally posted by cool 84
110mph at 13psi?

you're acting like that's what you run every time you run down the track.

"yup,set her at 13psi and run 12's all day"

the fact is,your boost was all over the place and this is some magic # you're pulling out of your ass to make your car sound fast.i find it hard to believe that you didn't tune your car on the street at all before you ran it at the track.then,if you did have this plethora of problems that were easily fixed,that you wouldn't run your ass right back down to the track for your unclogged 120mph pass .

now for some tech:from what i've seen of the cars on this board,an intercooler and ported heads/cam/intake are worth roughly the same amount of power.there are heads/cam/intake cars that are running basically the same mph as the stock top end intercooled cars.

i started experiencing diminishing returns from turning up the boost last time out,probably from the restriction of the stock top end.i'm thinking it would have kept picking up time/mph if i would have added more timing(i was running 24º).

if i get the chance i might make a few passes this spring with more timing before i pull it down for the ported heads/intake/cam.

 

[racemybuick]

street trim, but slicks on weekends

I just want to be clear with everyone. If I cna get mid to low 12's with slicks, then I will gladly bring the x wrench and a pair of slicks in the trunk. I am looking to put this car through a few passes once or twice a month, and then drive it at least four days of the week. The 12 sec goal is only for bragging rights in town, and a long time bet, and I know my car is capable of it, I just need to know how, without loosing the title hot air TR. I bought a hot air, and would like to keep the original status, mainly for the braging rights (a little rubbing in face never bothered the winner!). I don't want to break the bank, as I already have many expenses, so I am limiting myself to a very small budget.
Thank you Jamie for your constant help in the matter, I printed out your "recipe" from Gnttype.org...i dont have the money to make my car a .30 over car, but I am looking to run simular times, with the proper work done with the heads, intake, cam, and possibly alky injection if anyone agree's : )

John


84 T-Type GN Clone (wannabe)

 

[cool 84]

Yep, I pulled 13psi out of my ass. Again, I was at 22psi 1st and second. Second spun badly enough that it prematurely shifted to third and right at that time boost went down to 13psi for the MAJORITY of the run. Hell, it was 8psi at the end, would you like me to say I ran it at 8psi? I stand by my claim that my car was a 12 second car on street tire and 13psi.

What do you call easily fixed problems? I was at the track with no tools. The convertor came apart. I don't even run a convertor normally but I had gotten the car smogged the day before. A friend welded on a tiny used convertor for free for the smog check and I couldn't get ahold of him to cut it off before the track. I went there to hang out with some friends and have fun so I didn't mind running it through the convertor or putting up the best times possible. I did not, however plan on it breaking up. The car ran great on the way to the track up until the last time I nailed it and the boost spiked and then fell off quickly. The car was a pig that day. I can't believe it went 12s, it felt like a 15 second car to me. My street trim was 100LL av gas because I could get it for the same price as 92 octane and boost was always ~20psi. Would you like a video of me running a supercharged/heads/cam 5.0 with only 16psi boost? I've outrun too many 11 second cars around here and again, I refer to the Vipers because everyone knows what they run stock so it's not a guessing game when I pull them on the top end. Do you doubt my car was capable of 116+mph traps at 24psi?

Is it jealousy? I don't get it.

For turbo6x2, Yeah, you can run a lot of racegas for the cost of an intercooler. Like 4 tankfulls. I went through a tank a night so I guess I was stupid for buying an intercooler, right? I had a friend, the same one I mentioned before with every mod in the world who was against intercooling his car. Care to guess who bought my old Spearco setup? I think he saw the light after all the beatings he recieved from my car.

 

[crazygn]

I think with a good tune my car will run 115-118 at 20#'s of boost ask my brother jadams who has a 86gn he will tell you, i dont think cool is far off, i think it can be done,

 

[JDSfastGN]

I'm gonna have to say cool84 had the right setup to run those times, and you guys he was just offering his advice on what he thought would help him get into the 12s. I believe cool84, because it does not take magic and 25# of boost to go 12s in a hot air. I see no reason why his setup could not go 12s, even with the problems.

 

[turbo6x2]

Care to guess who bought my old Spearco setup? I think he saw the light after all the beatings he recieved from my car. [/B]


Don't really care. That was your choice. Mine is to prove along with others who already have, that you don't need an intercooler to do this. If you want an intercooled car why not buy a 86 or 87? This can be done without the intercooler. Alcohol for example. That was the road you wanted to take for your project, not everyone's. My car is still street driven in fact every weekend. I think the whole point is that not one person's way is the " ONLY" way this can be done. Just because this isn't the way you chose doesn't make it right or wrong. Just a personal choice..

 

[cool 84]

I don't care what you're trying to prove. The guy wanted to run 12s in street trim and I suggested an intercooler. I never said it's the only way. Those are your words. When the words street trim, budget, and 12s are mentioned in the same sentence, I automatically think intercooler. You guys are suggesting cam/heads/intake and race gas. That's $1,500 worth of stuff if he installs them himself. I suggest a $500 IC setup to take the place of cam/heads/intake and racegas. I have all mods you guys have mentioned. I did one at a time. I'm not the ignorant one here, I have nothing to prove, and I'm not the one who got all defensive. I think my times @ low boost speak for me. It's flattering you guys can't believe my car is so fast lol.

 

[fireberd350]

cool84: you have any pics of your engine....just curious to see what it looks like and how much plumbing is involved....thanks.....

 

[racemybuick]

wow...such a response!

Thank you all for your help so far. This will be a continuing topic for discussion, as I am thick headed, and it takes a while to sink in. lol. As for the age old question to intercool, or not to intercool, that is out of the question for now. I admire both ends of the argument, but just like the import/domestic disputes, no one is wrong. Some imports are fast, some (most) domestics are fast, but with the right price, some become the fastest.

I am not looking to go absolutely crazy, and I am certainly not looking to blow away every street/drag car out there (yet), but I do want to run low 12's, at a decent price, with the proper work, and as little cost as possible. I met a guy named Herb who had a mid 12's car who had Mease do most of the work, and his motor looks, and sounds quite impressive. For ME, I am looking to keep the "Hot Air" blowing for now, and just try to make the motor work a little more without blowing it up. When I am out of college with more $$$ in my pocket, I will seek other venues for more speed because we all know how addicting it is.

I would like to see any pics that people have of their engine compartments, so that I may have an idea on where to go and what to look for when I am gearing up for more speed. Thank you all for your help, and I think it is time for a new thread---"To intercool or not to intercool!" lol...thank you.
See my car @ http://hometown.aol.com/racemybuick/myhomepage/auto.html

 

[crazygn]

i emailed you some pictures of some of the intercoolers

hope it helps

 

[fireberd350]

crazygn:thanx....gonna chek them out now

racemybuick: oh and that guy named herb you talked to is on this board under turboregal84...actually hes mr moderator over here

 

[BlackAssGN]

crazygn would you mind sending me those pics too?

 

[crazygn]

sent more pictures

blackassgn, i'll send you some right now

 

[Twins]

Racemy;

I've seen JK's car go high 12's before the latest state of tune.

I've also seen a 86 with a big neck, 62, 50's, and a TH DP go 13.8's. Matter of fact I watched it again tonight on my PC.

I say this as a person who threw a $550.00 intake and a turbo rebuild to tune of $900.00 total to go a sec slower last year.

I'm sick of hearing it....I'm friggin sick of saying it but tuning can net you some great #'s.

Street tune is a relative term....in my GN it's av gas, open dump, and DR's cuz that's how I drive it. Nocooler runs his 86 on pump fuel and alky and 20+psi. Another friend runs around with 15 psi and only 93 on mostly stock parts. My TY has the stock 11 year old exhaust and a little Xylene for trips to the track in the heat of the summer.....it still runs the stock chip, however all the cars above are in street trim.

I would think that a homedone port and intake cleaning along with ProPain would put your car where you want it.
However I wouldn't even consider tearing the intake and heads off my car...hell I don't even change the plugs. If you are doing things yourself at my level you need to consider I/Cing the thing with a Ford FM and a trip to a good muffler shop. It's low dollar and should be able to run 22+ on good gas and 18-19 on pump fuel and a street chip.

You can go 12's if you want/have the time to spend wringing out every last possible tenth from your car.....or spend $ and get there easier (maybe).

Enjoy you're car however fast you are going and you might be way ahead of the next guy no matter what he runs.



As for you guys running crazy #'s on all stock stuff I'll seriously buy your round trip ticket and put you up if you can tune my car to a 12.1 or better on the parts I have along with the new 49 ready to go on. No BS. However if it goes 12.20000 you get to take parts off your car till mine runs 12.19999.

 

[racemybuick]

What mods can I get away with without IC?

What mods do I have to do in order to get a 12.499? I wont intercool the car yet, but I am willing to sink $2000 in the next year or so, as long as my same engine is in my car for next year. I dont want to blow the thing up, and I would like the originl top end to boast about.

I Have two spare intake manifolds, one complete with wiring harness, injectors, and ll, and the other is bones. THe bones intake I would like to port and try out, but I am in no way certified, or prepared to port myself.

The other I would like to dress up, chrome up and do all that nice stuff to, just to make the top end look nice when I am done with the beating of the car. I've been to buickgn.com and I would like more chrome, or shine under the hood....

Anybody got any ideas on porting?

Anybody got any ideas on dress-up-polishing/powder coating?


Thanks again!

John

84 T-Type GN Clone (wannabe)

 

[fireberd350]

IMO chrome looks terrible unless your entire engine is chromed out....otherwise it just looks like it doesnt belong there and makes everything else look dull....i like the plain look myself....clean and chromeless....and most of the work is free....it just involves a lot of time on a wire wheel and painting alot of detailed parts.....