Any talk of the Champion iron Stage2 block at BG??
- Thread starter 86brick
- Start date
Cheeseburger
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
Champion was there, they had a raw casting with them on display.
I think it will still be awhile before they are ready for general public,i.m.o.
I think it will still be awhile before they are ready for general public,i.m.o.
Yes, a rep was there for the tech session, Tom I believe, and it was talked about, seemed like he said it was definitely going to happen but there were other projects to complete first, seemed like he said it would be later this year before the first blocks would be out for testing.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
If he can't get pricing into the 2k range it may fail. We'll continue to see guys putting Chevy V8's into their cars due to cost vs power.
Tom did mention pricing at the tech session, said they were still shooting for the $2300-2500 range and they were still working on improving the oiling.
Mike Licht
I was here first
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
Actually Tom said $2500-$2800 there is no way to get it cheaper, ther is just not enough demand to make the quanity needed to get the price down. Some racers may go to Chevy power since it is cheaper and potentially faster but most Buick guys don't want a "cross dresser" and want Buick V6 powerplants. Noting against the chevy deal but it is two completely different markets.
Mike
Mike
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
Mike I have to respectfully disagree with you about Buick Racers.
Most people that want to do heads up racing at non Buick Events will make the change to the V8 rather than continue spending more money to go slower and brake more often.
There will also be a group of people that will never change and only race at Buick events. That is as long as they continue to go on.
I don't think trying to keep the cars valid in today’s high HP wars makes someone a non Buick guy that is just my opinion.
At least 3 Buick Vendors have done the switch already.
Several racers that have joined the dark side just in the last couple years include:
Chris Chow, Dusty Bradford, Louie Lopez, Ken Smith, Bill Anderson and many more....
There is a huge place for the v6s in our hearts, but it is not in the winner’s circle of any heads up racing.
I have owned 3 TRs and have had over 6 v6 motors in my time in the sport.
I would gladly trade my stage 2 motor for a v-8 turbo motor.
Does that make me less of a Buick Guy, in some minds it does...
Most people that want to do heads up racing at non Buick Events will make the change to the V8 rather than continue spending more money to go slower and brake more often.
There will also be a group of people that will never change and only race at Buick events. That is as long as they continue to go on.
I don't think trying to keep the cars valid in today’s high HP wars makes someone a non Buick guy that is just my opinion.
At least 3 Buick Vendors have done the switch already.
Several racers that have joined the dark side just in the last couple years include:
Chris Chow, Dusty Bradford, Louie Lopez, Ken Smith, Bill Anderson and many more....
There is a huge place for the v6s in our hearts, but it is not in the winner’s circle of any heads up racing.
I have owned 3 TRs and have had over 6 v6 motors in my time in the sport.
I would gladly trade my stage 2 motor for a v-8 turbo motor.
Does that make me less of a Buick Guy, in some minds it does...
Mike Licht
I was here first
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
John I completely agree with you, that is why I said racers and not Buick Racers Buick racers that want to go to Buick events will stay Buick powered. Racers that just want to race would be foolish to build a Buick V6, it costs more and goes slower. Dusty, Cal and Otto have made the switch and I am sure there will be more. I am just building a toy so I went 109 block to have some fun and try something new. If I was building a real race car it would not be a Buick it would be a LSx motor and likely would not be a Regal either. Lets face it, Buick guys are passionate about these cars and every time someone has talked about puttting in a chevy motor for the past 20 years there was lots of negative talk. They like there Buicks, well.... Buick. For me and for others when they no longer have the V6 they are just another g-body race car, a monte carlo with different trim. I realize not everyone feels that way but quite a few do. It is their car and they can do whatever makes them happy I wish them well and good sucess. I think Dusty's car is bad ass. Funny how things change though, about 8 or 9 years ago I proposed building a Chevy V8 with the Buick heads patterned after the Stage 2 V6 and was promptly told I would not be able to bring it to BG, I also got tons of nasty email about being a traitor and the like. Now I guess that is OK.
Mike
Mike
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Mike, I have to believe price has a direct effect on how many he will sell. The demand is there but how many will pay over 2k for a block. You get into the 3k range and I bet volume goes way down. Only the hardcore racers need to make the switch to V8 power because of the et's you see now. The V6 market should be in the 700-1200hp range which is where he'll sell the most blocks. These are guys who love the V6 and run a few events a year, like all Buick events. It's hard for those guys to justify paying 3k for a block. The market is small but as the price goes higher the buyer pool gets even smaller.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I had thought of building a Chevy V8 with the Nascar Buick heads. Nascar called it a Buick...would it be legal at BG???
It doesn't matter anyway, you could only run Q16 and I don't care for that.
If attendance drops as much over the next few years as it did this year, they will be begging anybody to show up. Who wants to attend this event every year and see the same show, with less cars and people?? I go to see friend's and hang out. As a racer I got tired of paying $250 or so for a greasy track in the day time. Late afternoon and night when the track finally comes around they shut it down. There must be a lot more people who feel that way, Thursday staging looked like Tuesday in years past. I love this event and don't want to see it go.
It doesn't matter anyway, you could only run Q16 and I don't care for that.
If attendance drops as much over the next few years as it did this year, they will be begging anybody to show up. Who wants to attend this event every year and see the same show, with less cars and people?? I go to see friend's and hang out. As a racer I got tired of paying $250 or so for a greasy track in the day time. Late afternoon and night when the track finally comes around they shut it down. There must be a lot more people who feel that way, Thursday staging looked like Tuesday in years past. I love this event and don't want to see it go.
Sounds like a pretty accurate statement to me.. For the hardcore racers that want to go HU racing there is really no place for the V6 even "IF" they give a weight break it is still basically impossible for the V6 to compete with the V8s... Now for the guys that just want a fast street car (say in the mid to low 9 sec range) I'd say this block will fill the void especially now that we have affordable forged cranks and rods.
I totally agree with the above statement. I am building my Stage II to have fun with. I will NEVER put a V-8 in my car,but that is me. I think it will be very nice to have 2 aftermarket blocks to choose from. I wish someone would make us a block to up the cubic inches a bit.
Correct me if I am wrong,but is the Chevrolet racing V-6 over 300ci?
Correct me if I am wrong,but is the Chevrolet racing V-6 over 300ci?
The Bowtie V6 can be made over 300ci... Matter of fact I know a guy down here putting one in his Syclone that is 312ci if I remember correctly
I think TA at one time talked about making a raised cam version of their Alum block with the possibility of around 300ci.
GNBRETT
Pelennor Fields
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2004
I agree. V8 is cheaper and obviously has more power potential but the novilty of a 6 is still popular and will likely always be. It would be nice to run
1000+ rwhp on pump gas tho..... Not something likely to happen with a 6. Maybe tho?
Mike Licht
I was here first
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
Dusty,
Everything you are saying is true, but the reality of the situation is this. To get the price at $2000 you would have to make more blocks than you could sell in a lifetime. No one could afford to make all those blocks and store them somewhere waiting for them to sell. Just because you can make a Chevy block for $1800 (only GM can do that) does not mean that a Buick can be made anywhere near than cost. I highly doubt when you figure in the tooling cost that Chanpion can even make a block for $1800. I know when I looked at doing in it was going to cost about $2000 each for 100 blocks and that was 7 years ago.
Mike
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I'm wondering how many extra blocks you would have to sell to get the price down that extra $800-1000. What do the TA blocks go for? Because I look at it this way. If Tom's block is anywhere near the price of the TA, I'll buy the TA. You loose the weight, and can replace the sleeves after a few rebuilds. From what you're saying, Champion is better off ordering less blocks and trying to sell all of them at a higher price rather than ordering more blocks and trying to lower the price. I can understand that because his initial cost could be an extra $100,000 easily. However, I know of 2 guys here locally who would buy right now if there was a cast iron block at 2k. This same scenario has to be similiar all over the country. Most guys flinch when you're looking at 3k for a block.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
Two issues that are related: Price and demand.
Typically (in most cases), it is along the lines of:
- Purchase Price decreases as demand increases
- Demand increases as Purchase Price decreases
I belief most will weigh the decision "To buy or not to buy" heavily on price.
This is why vendors are sometimes forced to source in LCC’s (Low Cost Countries)
So the decision(s) to purchase a V6-S2 block are based on the balance of the goal and budget:
1. Maybe ......... I build a 109, but, is XXX HP good enough?
2. Do I purchase a S2 block build in the US for $XXXX
3. Do I purchase a S2 block build in a LCC for $XXX
As long as our society has the “Wal-Mart Mentality”, product will be build in China. Those are the facts.
PS:
One of the ONLY markets where price increases as demand increases is gasoline ……….. Go figure
(Let's not alk about perceived shortages)
Typically (in most cases), it is along the lines of:
- Purchase Price decreases as demand increases
- Demand increases as Purchase Price decreases
I belief most will weigh the decision "To buy or not to buy" heavily on price.
This is why vendors are sometimes forced to source in LCC’s (Low Cost Countries)
So the decision(s) to purchase a V6-S2 block are based on the balance of the goal and budget:
1. Maybe ......... I build a 109, but, is XXX HP good enough?
2. Do I purchase a S2 block build in the US for $XXXX
3. Do I purchase a S2 block build in a LCC for $XXX
As long as our society has the “Wal-Mart Mentality”, product will be build in China. Those are the facts.
PS:
One of the ONLY markets where price increases as demand increases is gasoline ……….. Go figure
(Let's not alk about perceived shortages)
