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Anyone Tried 1/2" Head Bolts??

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Adam, Thats a good idea. Ive talked with several top shelf engine builders and the general concesus is to go with another set of heads since these have been welded on twice. Im in the process of picking a set out and Im planning on plugging up all the water holes in these heads without welding them. Having them cryoed would be in order after that process.
Anyone one eles had any experience with this??? Any body know where I can get that done?? Mike:cool:
 
Anyone one eles had any experience with this??? Any body know where I can get that done?? Mike:cool:

Mike,

You can also check out Joe Mondello's place in TN. I think he knows a little about cylinder heads... :biggrin: They do in-house cryo treating and vibratory stress relief as well.

We are moving to Tennessee

P.S.- Were those the heads I sold you the other year? You had mentioned at the time those were the ones you were gonna run...


K.
 
Mike you might want to talk to the 5.9 Cummins sled pullers. They just as hard on there engines as you are. Most of them have went to bigger head studs to keep the heads on running over 100 psi boost. These guys have tryed everthing out there and might offer you some good insight. Bob Holmes in the Wilmington area is the guru on Cummins around here. I can get you his # if you like.
 
Adam, Thats a good idea. Ive talked with several top shelf engine builders and the general concesus is to go with another set of heads since these have been welded on twice. Im in the process of picking a set out and Im planning on plugging up all the water holes in these heads without welding them. Having them cryoed would be in order after that process.
Anyone one eles had any experience with this??? Any body know where I can get that done?? Mike:cool:



Cryo them first, unless your using the same material the heads are made of to fill the water holes. If you use different materials and then cryo, they might crack due to different temperature related expansion rates. The nice thing about cryo treatment is that it is permanent unless you completely melt the material back down to it's elemental state! You wont hurt the cryo treatment unless you weld it. I would be willing to bet that cryo treated material even welds better. The gun industry swears by it.

Either way, cryo treating just offers more peace of mind. It's really interesting stuff!
 
Have 1/2 inch head bolts and no o-rings. Block and heads need to be lapped. Notice I said head bolts. I Run cometics without any problems and have ran 33 lbs of boost. :)
 
Quit screwing around Mike and just glob some JB weld on the gaskets and TIG the heads on. Then you can crank up the boost on that big honkin' blower and blow the crank right out the bottom! :biggrin:

Seriously, I would lean more toward trying some exotic 7/16" studs before I would go machining the block and heads for 1/2". I know you don't have to be concerned about the water jackets since you don't use them but you're talking about spending some big $$ and lots of time for something that may or may not work. If the exotic material studs didn't work then you could always try the 1/2" route - it's not like you don't have any Stage parts if you screw it up! I really think your problem may be more with the head itself flexing more so than the clamping force.
 
Have 1/2 inch head bolts and no o-rings. Block and heads need to be lapped. Notice I said head bolts. I Run cometics without any problems and have ran 33 lbs of boost. :)

How did the threads in the block look after re-tapping to 1/2"?? Thanks for owning up to doing this. Im sure there are more people who have done this with sucess , but it top secrete sh*t!!! Mike:cool:
 
Quit screwing around Mike and just glob some JB weld on the gaskets and TIG the heads on. Then you can crank up the boost on that big honkin' blower and blow the crank right out the bottom! :biggrin:

Seriously, I would lean more toward trying some exotic 7/16" studs before I would go machining the block and heads for 1/2". I know you don't have to be concerned about the water jackets since you don't use them but you're talking about spending some big $$ and lots of time for something that may or may not work. If the exotic material studs didn't work then you could always try the 1/2" route - it's not like you don't have any Stage parts if you screw it up! I really think your problem may be more with the head itself flexing more so than the clamping force.

Will, I guess that it only takes one look at that 14-71 blower, to realize that Im either not skeered or Im just crazy!!! Either way, Im skiping the stepping stones and going straight to best fix, which in my opinion is the exotic 1/2" studs. Mike:cool:
 
Mike you might want to talk to the 5.9 Cummins sled pullers. They just as hard on there engines as you are. Most of them have went to bigger head studs to keep the heads on running over 100 psi boost. These guys have tryed everthing out there and might offer you some good insight. Bob Holmes in the Wilmington area is the guru on Cummins around here. I can get you his # if you like.

Some of the guys also change out the head to one that has a thicker lower deck. It seems that the diesles have very similar problems as our Buicks. That is enough cylinder pressure you notice two things the head studs stretch and the head starts to deform. But many of these guys when they start to push 1,000hp they jump to the 1/2 head bolts and even o-ring blocks. Once you start to see around 1,500hp or more they look for different heads.
 
Ok Im back on my Buick project!! I received my custom made ARP L19 1/2" head studs back in November but have been focused on other projects up till now , so here I go!! Exercise in Futility or not Im moving forward with this!!

I will update as I go along but for the moment see pics of the fixture plate I made to drill and tap the block, also doubles for a fixture to redrill the head bolt holes to 1/2" and put counterbores for the insert washers Im going to use for the head stud nuts. A couple of the pics show the difference in the 7/16 compared to 1/2" studs ,nuts & washers. Heads are done and ready to be reassembled. I will hopefully get started on the block soon. Mike:cool:
 

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This is a really interesting engine tech topic- thanks for posting. Here are some constructive thoughts.

Since it's blowing past the areas between the bolts, I agree that better bolts will likely not fix it.

The problem is it's over pressuring. The head is actually deflecting enough between the securing bolts that combustion gases are escaping past. If it lifts enough like that, no o-ring will stop that. Even with the S2 6 bolts/cyl provising shorter distance between the clamp bolts, it's still lifting/deflecting the head enough to leak combustin gases.

You run 60 psi boost, but what is the air density at that 60 psi? Do you have a way to measure the air temperature in the manifold at 60 psi?

Assuming it isn't detonating (and since no other parts like plugs seem to be destroyed that seems to be a fair assumption so far), then it's just flat out over pressuring.

The only way you have to control the peak pressure is to retard the timing. Again, assuming no other combustion funny stuff is occurring.

The engine can probably only safely keep a lid on about 1600-1700 psi peak pressure. Even a heavy duty diesel structure (and all heavy iron) will generally stay below ~ 1800 psi peak.

At say 1700 psi peak pressure, and with a 4.0" bore there is a peak force of > 21,000 lbs pushing down on the piston. AND upwards on the cylinder head at that point. That's like flippng the engine over and hanging 6 GN's from a hook bolt in the center of your combustion chamber. It's not hard to see that the head will move a few thousandths (at least) ;) in response under those conditions.

It also puts a huge peak load on the rod bearing at that point as well. In fact, you can get clever and tell where in CAD your pressure peak is occurring by examing the wear line that appears across the bearing. Where that line occurs in CAD is also ~ where the pressure peak is occurring.

It looks like you have done all you can to get the maximum clamping force and gasket sealing. Aside from running an Offy type setup with no joint between cylinder and head (lol) I think the only real fix will be to reduce the pressure peak back to within tolerable limits.

The big question then- what does your spark advance curve look like with that 60 psi boost? :) If it's anywhere near even 20 deg at 60 psi (asuming a reasonable charge air temp and density as well) then I'm surprised that scouring out a bit of aluminum from head gasket leakeage is all the damage that has occurred so far. Considering that, looks like a great job in S2 engine design and in engine building I'd say!

"More power means you need to make more cylinder pressure!! " seems to make sense at first, and is the popular line in the glossy mags and such.. For example "Nitrous works by drastically increasing cylinder pressure!" they proudly trumpet. But fortunately there is much more to the story. See this article for starters: http://www.kb-silvolite.com/test/article.php?action=read&A_id=7

One of the few true articles on the whole ww web on the topic in fact.

TurboTR
 
I have a question.... i seen where dusty would have to cut his heads to get them flat agaiin after some high boost runs onthe sb2 aluminum heads.. is this because of the aluminum heads, or would it be as bad if the head was cast iron? would the cast head do the same and the aluminum heads of warping?
 
Think it was because he's also getting aluminum scoured away by combustion gas leakage.

TurboTR
 
TurboTR, I pretty much agree with everthing you said and your theory , in theory!! But the facts that I see dont agree at all with that theory. Over 10 years of messing with this blower I have tried a lot of things. All of the buick folks that I know are turbo people and I have tended to lean towards things that work with turbo engines. But the facts are this engine flat doesnt like some of those things, especially retarted timing. I have run as little as 16 deg up to 40 deg. Absolutely without any question this engine likes more timing!!
However with the timing comes the expected carnage.
Last year with the new 1471 blower I was seeing 60+ lbs of boost and never really got the fuel caught up to it so I stayed at 33 deg. timing. Manifold temps are at the hit around 90 deg and at 660' would be around 160 deg and at 1100' (never made it past that) 208 deg.
An example of the timing is at years end 2008 I made 13 runs at 33deg trying to get an AF that I could read the whole pass. All 13 runs were 4.50 to 4.52 at between 150 and 152 mph. The last weekend we unloaded the car and made a pass just as we last ran it and it went 4.52 at 152. We then put 2 deg more timing in it and it went 4.42 at 156 with an increase in every downtrack number.
So question is ,do I back off the tuneup and settle for what the headgaskets will hold, or do I attempt to make the head gaskets hold more?? I choose to attempt to make the HG hold more, and here I am. Mike:cool:
 
Well it's not my theory really, just engine facts. All engines have a safe pressure limit- exceed the limit and you start to get exactly the sort of damge you're seeing, or worse. Choosing what to do in response to that damage evidence is up to the user ;) a) Back the pressure down and stop the damage or b) live with the damage and go a tick faster.

Short of adding even more clamp bolts around the perimiter, unfortunately the result will probably just continue to be a leaking head gasket joint.

TurboTR
 
I see someone beat me to it...Have you considered iron heads Mike ? You must have a couple sets in your parts collection!
GB
 
Mike, do you think maybe you're entering the realm of semi-controlled detonation with your tuneup? I've heard of some alcohol tuners being able to dance that fine line. But the consequences of stepping off that line is never good, and the bigger head bolts isn't going to be enough to save you, if that is what's truly happening.

That much performance gain from 2 degrees leads me to believe you're tuning to that edge. The slightest change in weather or any other tuning parameter can be disasterous when you're running that fine line.
 
I cant go 3.999 in the 660' by backing off!! If I thought it wasnt possible to do then I wouldnt be trying. Its not rocket science as far as Im concerned, Im making to much cylinder pressure with the current setup. Only way to go faster is make more cylinder pressure!! Only way to contain more cylinder pressure with the parts currently available is to provide more clamping force to those parts. A stout set of billet 6061 alum heads would certainly help this situation but I cannot afford that at this time , so a step in the right direction is to increase the size and strength of the head bolt fasteners and thats what Im doing!!
Example - If you were to purchase a new Dart or World products sbc ,bbc , ford sb or bb block today you would have an option of going to larger head bolts. Why do you think that is?? Its because depending on the intended use, the original 7/16 fasteners may not be adequate for the job. Hemi blocks were originally all 7/16 bolts, but I bet Allen Johnson would not build a Pro Mod or alcohol block with anything less than 1/2" head bolts. I believe in some cases they are produced with 9/16 and or 5/8" head bolts. Reason being - thats what it takes to contain that much cylinder pressure.
That being said, I find it very odd that so many of you think that this wont solve anything!! You may be right!! But - It is underway!! So we will see. Mike:cool:
 
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