Art carr convertor questions

[WS6]

don't know if you fellas can help.
The 9" Art Carr convertor has a 3 bolt mounting,kind of like 3 bushings are welded onto the forward plate. The convertor attaches to the flexplate with 3, 3/8 X 1-1/2(or so in length) bolts and nuts.

The question I have is this, there are 2 washers used as shims between the flexplate and convertor's welded bushing(s) and I don't know why? Combined the shims are .95 thick. And it appears it's to move the convertor rearwards on the input shaft of the trans. Now, there seems to be plenty of spline length not warrant these shims. Maybe it's to shim the convertor out from the crank's flange.
But, because of the splined input I think the convertor is wanting to walk backwards on the input shaft under load and bowing my old flexplate (it looks bowed backwards) and causing the incredibly loud starter noise.

So...are these shims required? Do I need more to push the convertor back on the trans input shaft more?

Is this typical for an aftermarket convertor? here's some pictures of what I'm talking about.

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[challengermike]

Sometimes aftermarket converters arnt made to perfect specs.Usually when you use shims it is because the converter pulls way out of the trans before it touches the flexplate.They only way to tell if it needs them would be when you are putting the trans up and have it bolted to the engine to slide the converter with a pry bar or screwdriver to the flexplate and see how far it comes out.I dont know of any spec for this.So i cant tell you how much is unexceptable.But when you do this also make sure that the converter touches the flexplate without drawing it up with the bolts.It should fit flat on it.If it isnt touching it maybe that the shims where in there because the converter nub it bottoming out in the crank.Sometimes converters balloon causing this to happen also.The engine side of the converter will look pushed out.I am sure your converter should have anti ballooning plates in it though.Also if somebody put the trans up before and didnt have the converter all the way in the trans it will bend the flexplate,it will wipe the trans pump also.Just another posiablity.

 

[d90dan]

But, because of the splined input I think the convertor is wanting to walk backwards on the input shaft under load and bowing my old flexplate (it looks bowed backwards) and causing the incredibly loud starter noise.

Some converters need shims, some don't.

I don't understand your comment on the flexplate bowing. If you've had enough pressure to permanently bow the flexplate I would wonder the condition of your thrust bearing?

 

[SSedan64]

This is from TCI's website>

What type of clearance should I have between the torque converter and flexplate before pulling the converter forward and bolting it to flexplate?

Answer: You should have 1/8" (.125") to 3/16" (.1875") between the torque converter and flexplate before pulling the converter forward and bolting it to flexplate

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Answer: You should have 1/8" (.125") to 3/16" (.1875") between the torque converter and flexplate before pulling the converter forward and bolting it to flexplate

Just to make sure they see it

 

[WS6]

I don't understand your comment on the flexplate bowing. If you've had enough pressure to permanently bow the flexplate I would wonder the condition of your thrust bearing?

I'll try and elaborate...this car has always(since I owned it) had a terrible cranking noise, like when a starter needs shimmed out from the block. I tried a new starter with no improvement. I tried various shim combinations only to find using no shims was most quiet....I just lived with it.

Since the engine is out for a cam change and other little problems,unrelated, I stumbled onto this torque convertor mounting set up and thought it unusual. I have NO experience with aftermarket convertors and felt the flexplate looked bowed and maybe this is all related to my starter whining/winging.
I purchased 2 aftermarket flexplates and the second one has the least amount of run out, but both new ones have some irregularities similar to the original's look of being bowed. Make sense??

I was thinking that maybe the way the convertor was shimmed it was putting the flexplate in a bind and bowing it, therefore throwing the ring gear out "plane" if you will, with the starter drive.
The old ring gear has some wear and if it had no starter noise I wouldn't hesitate to throw it back in. I've seen much worse.

Now, since I have the flexplate off, and don't know if it's ever been off before. Does the flush side go towards the convertor? Or does the dished side go towards the covertor? Meaning the plate itself is not centered in the ring gear...it is flush on one side and set in on the other...duh. So I was thinking if it was on backwards it would change how deep or shallow the starter drive engages the ring gear.

Help?

Thanks for replying by the way, I appreciate it.


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[d90dan]

Understood. Well if the motor is out, I'm sure you'll be looking at the bearings anyway.

Another thought, if the plate was at all loose, they'll make some nasty noises when cranking over.

Good Luck!

 

[Alky V6]

The flat side of the flexplate goes towards the converter.

The shims are to take up extra converter to flexplate clearance due to the torque converter hub being too short. Shimming the T/C towards the transmission will assure adequate torque converter hub to inner pump gear drive engagement. With the shims in place, you still want to look for a free clearance of around 1/8". If all the clearance is taken up or more, then you run the risk of having the torque converter hub push the inner pump gear into the pump cover and ruining the pump. There is also the risk of hurting the crank thrust too. Believe me, the soft aluminum pump cover will be the first to become damaged.

 

[WS6]

The flat side of the flexplate goes towards the converter.

Excellent!

With the shims in place, you still want to look for a free clearance of around 1/8". If all the clearance is taken up or more, then you run the risk of having the torque converter hub push the inner pump gear into the pump cover and ruining the pump.

Okay, when you say free clearance, you mean clearance between what, the crankshaft flange and front hub? or clearance between the output hub(?) and the pump of the trans?

Forgive me, because I'm a little confused as to what needs 1/8" of clearance.

Thanks again by the way.

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[Alky V6]

With the transmission mated to the engine, and the torque converter pushed into the transmission until it is bottomed out, you are measuring the clearance between the mounting pads of the torque converter and the area on the flexplate that those mounting pads will contact when you eventually pull the torque converter to the flexplate and attach the bolts.

That would be the same area you found the shims at.

 

[WS6]

Now I understand...I will be sure to print this off when it goes back together.

Thanks!


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