Best of Rollbars: swing-out hardware, finishes, noise reduction, etc...
- Thread starter GN SBS
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NOT!
2 slow said:
"And if you read the rule book carefully you will see that it only says the bar behind the seat has to be attached to the roll bar. It doesn't say it has to be welded".
Here's an e-mail addy for tech at NHRA... Suggest you contact them before you "assume" that since the rules didn't say the bar can't be bolted in, that it can..ELowe@nhra.com
Also, a 5 point bar does not afford the chassis rigidity that a 6 point does....
BTW, I've posted the NHRA response to the above question some time back...The response made it VERY clear that the x bar has to be welded into the main hoop..But, as posted above, if the track tech is not up to speed, he likely won't catch it either...Suggest an archive search???
2 slow said:
"And if you read the rule book carefully you will see that it only says the bar behind the seat has to be attached to the roll bar. It doesn't say it has to be welded".
Here's an e-mail addy for tech at NHRA... Suggest you contact them before you "assume" that since the rules didn't say the bar can't be bolted in, that it can..ELowe@nhra.com
Also, a 5 point bar does not afford the chassis rigidity that a 6 point does....
BTW, I've posted the NHRA response to the above question some time back...The response made it VERY clear that the x bar has to be welded into the main hoop..But, as posted above, if the track tech is not up to speed, he likely won't catch it either...Suggest an archive search???
Re: NOT!
Great info-- always a great idea to call and not assume. Now, back on topic.
Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
2 slow said:
Here's an e-mail addy for tech at NHRA... Suggest you contact them before you "assume" that since the rules didn't say the bar can't be bolted in, that it can..ELowe@nhra.com
Also, a 5 point bar does not afford the chassis rigidity that a 6 point does....
Great info-- always a great idea to call and not assume. Now, back on topic.
Found this online (info below). Not sure which year NHRA rulebook this came out of, but it looks like it is word for word the same as the info in my 2003 edition. To be 100% sure get one from the NHRA
I thought the info on the swingouts (clevices & sleeves - at the end of the text) was especially interesting.
Info on roll bars and roll cages in full bodied cars. From: http://www.thepike.net/NHRA Rules.htm
"4.10 ROLL BARS
All roll bars must be within 6-inches (15.2 cm) of the rear, or side, of the driver's head, extend in height at least 3-inches (7.6 cm) above the driver's helmet with driver in normal driving position, and be at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1-inch (2.5 cm) of the driver's door. Roll bar must be adequately supported or cross-braced to prevent forward or lateral collapse of roll bar. Rear braces must be of the same diameter and wall thickness as the roll bar and intersect with the roll bar at a point not more than 5-inches (12.7 cm) from the top of the roll bar. Sidebar must be included on driver's side. The side bar must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow. All vehicles with OEM frame must have roll bar attached to frame; installation of frame connectors on unibody cars does not constitute a frame and therefore it is not necessary to have the roll bar attached to the frame. Unibody cars with stock floor and firewall (wheel tubs permitted) may attach roll bar with 6-inch (15.2 cm) x 6-inch (15.2 cm) x .125-inch (3.2 mm) steel plates on top and bottom of floor bolted together with at least four 3/8-inch (9.53 mm) bolts and nuts, or weld main hoop to rocker sill area with .125-inch (3.2 mm) reinforcing plates. All 4130 chrome moly welding must be done by approved TIG Heliarc process; mild steel (or ST51) welding must be approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited. See illustration (Drawing 12).
Roll bar must be padded anywhere driver's helmet may contact it while in driving position. Adequate padding must have minimum 1/4-inch (6.35 mm) compression or meet SFI Spec 45.1.
4.11 ROLL CAGE
All cage structures must be designed in an attempt to protect the driver from any angle, 360-degrees. All 4130 chrome-moly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel tube welding must be approved MIG wire feed or TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. any grinding of welds prohibited. Additionally, roll cage must be padded any where the driver's helmet may contact it while in the driving position. TAD, TAFC, Pro Stock, Funny Car & Top Fuel padding must meet SFI Spec 45.1.
Full Bodied Cars
On full bodied car, with driver in driving position, helmet must be in front of main hoop. If helmet is behind or under main hoop, additional tubing same size and thickness as roll cage must be added to protect driver. Main hoop may be laid back or forward but driver must be encapsulated within the required roll cage components.
All cage structures must have in their construction cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point; cross bar must be installed no more than 4-inches (102 mm) below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to side bar. All required rear braces must be installed at a minimum angle of 30-degrees from vertical, and must be welded in. Side bar must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow.
Unless an O.E.M. frame rail is located below and outside of driver's legs (i.e. '55 Chevy, '65 Corvette, etc.) a rocker or sill bar, minimum 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) x .083 (2.1 mm) CM or .118 (3.0 mm) MS or 2-inch x 2-inch x .058-inch (50.8 x 50.8 x 1.5 mm) CM or MS rectangular, is mandatory in any car with a modified floor or rocker box within the roll cage uprights (excluding six square feet of transmission maintenance opening). Rocker bar must be installed below and outside of driver's legs, and must tie into the main hoop, the forward hoop, frame, frame extension or side diagonal. Rocker bar may not tie into swing out side bar support. If rocker bar ties into side diagonal more than 5-inches (127 mm) (edge to edge) from forward roll cage support or main hoop, a 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) x .083 (2.1 mm) CM or .118 (3.0 mm) MS brace/gusset is mandatory between the diagonal and forward roll cage support or main hoop.
Swing out side bar permitted on O.E.M. full bodied car 7.50 (*4.50) E.T. and slower. The following requirements (a through d) will be enforced on cars certified after 1/1/98, on all cars 1/1/99.
a. 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) O.D. x .083-inch (2.1 mm) (CM) or .118-inch (3.0 mm) (MS) minimum. Bolts / pins must be 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) diameter steel, minimum and in double shear at both ends.
b. Male or female clevis(es) permitted. Male clevis must use two minimum 1/8-inch (3.2 mm) thick brackets (CM or MS) welded to each roll cage upright; female must use minimum 1/4-inch (5.4 mm) thick bracket (CM or MS) welded to each roll cage upright. Pins must be within 8-inches (204 mm) of the vertical portion of both the forward and main hoops. A half cup backing device must be welded to the vertical portion of the main hoop (inward side) or the upper end of the swing out bar (outward side), minimum .118-inch (3.0 mm) wall (CM or MS) extending at least 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) past the center of the pins. A clevis assembly utilizing a minimum .350-inch (8.90 mm) thick male component and two minimum .175-inch (4.45 mm) thick female components may use a 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) diameter grade 5 bolt, and does not require a half cup backing device.
c. Sliding sleeves of 1 3/8-inch (35 mm) x .083-inch (2.1 mm) CM or .118 (3.0 mm) MS, with minimum 2-inch (51 mm) engagement, are permitted in lieu of the upper pin/cup.
d. All bolt/pin holes in the swing out bar must have at least one hole diameter of material around the outside of the hole. "
I thought the info on the swingouts (clevices & sleeves - at the end of the text) was especially interesting.
Info on roll bars and roll cages in full bodied cars. From: http://www.thepike.net/NHRA Rules.htm
"4.10 ROLL BARS
All roll bars must be within 6-inches (15.2 cm) of the rear, or side, of the driver's head, extend in height at least 3-inches (7.6 cm) above the driver's helmet with driver in normal driving position, and be at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1-inch (2.5 cm) of the driver's door. Roll bar must be adequately supported or cross-braced to prevent forward or lateral collapse of roll bar. Rear braces must be of the same diameter and wall thickness as the roll bar and intersect with the roll bar at a point not more than 5-inches (12.7 cm) from the top of the roll bar. Sidebar must be included on driver's side. The side bar must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow. All vehicles with OEM frame must have roll bar attached to frame; installation of frame connectors on unibody cars does not constitute a frame and therefore it is not necessary to have the roll bar attached to the frame. Unibody cars with stock floor and firewall (wheel tubs permitted) may attach roll bar with 6-inch (15.2 cm) x 6-inch (15.2 cm) x .125-inch (3.2 mm) steel plates on top and bottom of floor bolted together with at least four 3/8-inch (9.53 mm) bolts and nuts, or weld main hoop to rocker sill area with .125-inch (3.2 mm) reinforcing plates. All 4130 chrome moly welding must be done by approved TIG Heliarc process; mild steel (or ST51) welding must be approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited. See illustration (Drawing 12).
Roll bar must be padded anywhere driver's helmet may contact it while in driving position. Adequate padding must have minimum 1/4-inch (6.35 mm) compression or meet SFI Spec 45.1.
4.11 ROLL CAGE
All cage structures must be designed in an attempt to protect the driver from any angle, 360-degrees. All 4130 chrome-moly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel tube welding must be approved MIG wire feed or TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. any grinding of welds prohibited. Additionally, roll cage must be padded any where the driver's helmet may contact it while in the driving position. TAD, TAFC, Pro Stock, Funny Car & Top Fuel padding must meet SFI Spec 45.1.
Full Bodied Cars
On full bodied car, with driver in driving position, helmet must be in front of main hoop. If helmet is behind or under main hoop, additional tubing same size and thickness as roll cage must be added to protect driver. Main hoop may be laid back or forward but driver must be encapsulated within the required roll cage components.
All cage structures must have in their construction cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point; cross bar must be installed no more than 4-inches (102 mm) below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to side bar. All required rear braces must be installed at a minimum angle of 30-degrees from vertical, and must be welded in. Side bar must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow.
Unless an O.E.M. frame rail is located below and outside of driver's legs (i.e. '55 Chevy, '65 Corvette, etc.) a rocker or sill bar, minimum 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) x .083 (2.1 mm) CM or .118 (3.0 mm) MS or 2-inch x 2-inch x .058-inch (50.8 x 50.8 x 1.5 mm) CM or MS rectangular, is mandatory in any car with a modified floor or rocker box within the roll cage uprights (excluding six square feet of transmission maintenance opening). Rocker bar must be installed below and outside of driver's legs, and must tie into the main hoop, the forward hoop, frame, frame extension or side diagonal. Rocker bar may not tie into swing out side bar support. If rocker bar ties into side diagonal more than 5-inches (127 mm) (edge to edge) from forward roll cage support or main hoop, a 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) x .083 (2.1 mm) CM or .118 (3.0 mm) MS brace/gusset is mandatory between the diagonal and forward roll cage support or main hoop.
Swing out side bar permitted on O.E.M. full bodied car 7.50 (*4.50) E.T. and slower. The following requirements (a through d) will be enforced on cars certified after 1/1/98, on all cars 1/1/99.
a. 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) O.D. x .083-inch (2.1 mm) (CM) or .118-inch (3.0 mm) (MS) minimum. Bolts / pins must be 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) diameter steel, minimum and in double shear at both ends.
b. Male or female clevis(es) permitted. Male clevis must use two minimum 1/8-inch (3.2 mm) thick brackets (CM or MS) welded to each roll cage upright; female must use minimum 1/4-inch (5.4 mm) thick bracket (CM or MS) welded to each roll cage upright. Pins must be within 8-inches (204 mm) of the vertical portion of both the forward and main hoops. A half cup backing device must be welded to the vertical portion of the main hoop (inward side) or the upper end of the swing out bar (outward side), minimum .118-inch (3.0 mm) wall (CM or MS) extending at least 1 5/8-inch (41.2 mm) past the center of the pins. A clevis assembly utilizing a minimum .350-inch (8.90 mm) thick male component and two minimum .175-inch (4.45 mm) thick female components may use a 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) diameter grade 5 bolt, and does not require a half cup backing device.
c. Sliding sleeves of 1 3/8-inch (35 mm) x .083-inch (2.1 mm) CM or .118 (3.0 mm) MS, with minimum 2-inch (51 mm) engagement, are permitted in lieu of the upper pin/cup.
d. All bolt/pin holes in the swing out bar must have at least one hole diameter of material around the outside of the hole. "
Originally posted by GN SBS
If you could dig around and find the manufacturer of these we'd all be in debt to you
thanks!
Scott
Moton Racing in Strasburg, Va. did the installation. There number is 540-465-3068. John Moton. I can tell you it is a six point bar, with a 2" stud that goes through the forward frame and out the bottom. It's welded on top off the frame and at the bottom. The stud has a groove cut in it that allows the bar to pivot in the groove via a bolt that is also removable, thereby allowing the swing outs to be quickly removed.The rear bars go right the the outer edge of the rear speakers. Know noise or rattling at all with either of my bars. You remove the interior, deliver the car to him and he charges $1200. Alan Witter, Billy Anderson, Barry Walker and others have used John and I think they will vouch for his work.
I have run 8 years at 6 tracks with my crossbar bolted in with 4 grade 8 1/2" bolts. Never had a problem.
I find it interesting that in the post above about the 4.10 Roll Bar rules that the cross bar isn't even mentioned much less anything about welding! Do you guys even read anything about this?
I am not "assuming" what the rules say. You might spend 10 bucks and buy a 2004 NHRA rule book before you "assume" too much. The 2004 NHRA rulebook Section 16 - General Regulations 4.10 Roll Bars page 206 states "All roll bars must have in their construction a cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point; cross bar must be installed no more than 4 inches below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to side bar."
All I see is "installed" and nothing about welding, but I guess I should "assume" it says welded? If NHRA said some time back that it was VERY clear the cross bar had to be welded, why haven't they changed the wording in the rules? I think you are the ones assuming.
The passenger side bar is not going to help with rigidity. The car will still twist. You would have to add some X braces to the roll bar to help that and you would be better off to spend your money on rear suspension upgrades. That will do more for 60 ft. times. All you do with the pass side bar is add weight and make it a pain for the passenger. I don't have a side bar on either side when driving on the street. Thats how I have a balanced look.
I find it interesting that in the post above about the 4.10 Roll Bar rules that the cross bar isn't even mentioned much less anything about welding! Do you guys even read anything about this?
I am not "assuming" what the rules say. You might spend 10 bucks and buy a 2004 NHRA rule book before you "assume" too much. The 2004 NHRA rulebook Section 16 - General Regulations 4.10 Roll Bars page 206 states "All roll bars must have in their construction a cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point; cross bar must be installed no more than 4 inches below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to side bar."
All I see is "installed" and nothing about welding, but I guess I should "assume" it says welded? If NHRA said some time back that it was VERY clear the cross bar had to be welded, why haven't they changed the wording in the rules? I think you are the ones assuming.
The passenger side bar is not going to help with rigidity. The car will still twist. You would have to add some X braces to the roll bar to help that and you would be better off to spend your money on rear suspension upgrades. That will do more for 60 ft. times. All you do with the pass side bar is add weight and make it a pain for the passenger. I don't have a side bar on either side when driving on the street. Thats how I have a balanced look.
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???????????
All I see is "installed" and nothing about welding, but I guess I should "assume" it says welded? If NHRA said some time back that it was VERY clear the cross bar had to be welded, why haven't they changed the wording in the rules? I think you are the ones assuming.
The passenger side bar is not going to help with rigidity. The car will still twist. You would have to add some X braces to the roll bar to help that and you would be better off to spend your money on rear suspension upgrades. That will do more for 60 ft. times. All you do with the pass side bar is add weight and make it a pain for the passenger. I don't have a side bar on either side when driving on the street. Thats how I have a balanced look.
Personally, I don't give a damn how you put the bars in your car, as I don't have to ride in it.
I reported what I was told, what I have discussed w/ the rules folks, and some 40+ yrs of experience... Agree or disagree... I could care less.
As for "assuming", I make no "assumptions" when doing my work. That's why I contact the folks in charge for clarification when needed...
Also, a 5 point bar does not afford the chassis rigidity that a 6 point does....
"I guess my 1.36 60ft off the foot brake would have been better with a PS door bar Hehe"
I guess that's why your mom named you Gene, as in Genius..
Does this mean that soon we will all be in awe when you go 7's w/ your stock block and no tranny in the car???
All I see is "installed" and nothing about welding, but I guess I should "assume" it says welded? If NHRA said some time back that it was VERY clear the cross bar had to be welded, why haven't they changed the wording in the rules? I think you are the ones assuming.
The passenger side bar is not going to help with rigidity. The car will still twist. You would have to add some X braces to the roll bar to help that and you would be better off to spend your money on rear suspension upgrades. That will do more for 60 ft. times. All you do with the pass side bar is add weight and make it a pain for the passenger. I don't have a side bar on either side when driving on the street. Thats how I have a balanced look.
Personally, I don't give a damn how you put the bars in your car, as I don't have to ride in it.
I reported what I was told, what I have discussed w/ the rules folks, and some 40+ yrs of experience... Agree or disagree... I could care less.
As for "assuming", I make no "assumptions" when doing my work. That's why I contact the folks in charge for clarification when needed...
Also, a 5 point bar does not afford the chassis rigidity that a 6 point does....
"I guess my 1.36 60ft off the foot brake would have been better with a PS door bar Hehe"
I guess that's why your mom named you Gene, as in Genius..
Does this mean that soon we will all be in awe when you go 7's w/ your stock block and no tranny in the car???
A little cranky are we Chuck
As far as bringing my (Dead)mother into this id bet you wouldnt say that if i was standing face to face with you...
I didnt like that comment at ALL
I didnt attack you in my post and as the Hehe and smiley face in my post shows i was kidding around with you and maybe you didnt take it that way.
I didnt want to start a fight with you Chuck but your comments got me fired up and im not one to sit and take your or anyones smart ass comment. I will from now on try to stick to the Northwest area form and not post anything else ive done with my car as to not make anyone jelly of the times ive done in my car i built in a 2 car garage that im proud of
All i was trying to get accross is that a 4 foot long bolted in door bar doesnt do much for the rigidity of the cars frame and 60ft
If you think you know everything you have alot to learn..
As far as bringing my (Dead)mother into this id bet you wouldnt say that if i was standing face to face with you...
I didnt like that comment at ALL
I didnt attack you in my post and as the Hehe and smiley face in my post shows i was kidding around with you and maybe you didnt take it that way.I didnt want to start a fight with you Chuck but your comments got me fired up and im not one to sit and take your or anyones smart ass comment. I will from now on try to stick to the Northwest area form and not post anything else ive done with my car as to not make anyone jelly of the times ive done in my car i built in a 2 car garage that im proud of
All i was trying to get accross is that a 4 foot long bolted in door bar doesnt do much for the rigidity of the cars frame and 60ft If you think you know everything you have alot to learn..
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Cranky? Not.
Gene, the smiley I posted was also intended to be just a "yankin your chain" comment.
As far as I can see, I didn't attack you either.. If you are "fired up", I apologize....You've done some neat stuff w/ your cars, and so have I....
Let's leave it at that....I'm w/ it, if you are.
Gene, the smiley I posted was also intended to be just a "yankin your chain" comment.
As far as I can see, I didn't attack you either.. If you are "fired up", I apologize....You've done some neat stuff w/ your cars, and so have I....
Let's leave it at that....I'm
w/ it, if you are. Im good with that also Chuck
I just dont let anybody say anything to dis my mother My friend 2Slow is new to this posting to a form and i told him he was a little to stong on his posts. Like the caps and being a little to dry because as we all know it can be taken the wrong way By the way i will be working on the no trans and going 7,s Hehe If i cut a hole in the floor and wear a good sticky set of shoes i think it can be done LOL.. Fred Flinston did it but im not sure what 60ft he was getting ROFL
I just dont let anybody say anything to dis my mother My friend 2Slow is new to this posting to a form and i told him he was a little to stong on his posts. Like the caps and being a little to dry because as we all know it can be taken the wrong way By the way i will be working on the no trans and going 7,s Hehe If i cut a hole in the floor and wear a good sticky set of shoes i think it can be done LOL.. Fred Flinston did it but im not sure what 60ft he was getting ROFLI'm just glad more people are talking about roll bars. More people are getting their cars faster and faster, without thinking about their safety. It's hard to belive that any event/club/track would let a car run in the tens without a roll bar -- JMHO.
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????????
The shoes mite be a good start!!
Originally posted by geno
Im good with that also Chuck
The shoes mite be a good start!!
