Block Prep Question

[86 TR]

I guess you can say Ive got the bug of going faster, faster, faster. Last year my best E.T. and Mph was 12.20 @ 109 MPH. This year I added a turbo, I/C, and downpipe and went deep into the 11's. Awesome. Now I want to go faster yet!!

I was wondering how much power can a well prepped 109 block with a girdle, billet main caps and stock crankshaft and rods take?? Reason I ask this is because the times Ive run in my sig. is nothing more than a stock bottom end with arp main studs, forged pistons, and a flat tappet cam. No billet caps or anything. Good rod bolts of course. But at the power level Im making right now Im getting concerned about the bottom end. I really don't want to be a member of the DOTC quite yet. I haven't had any serious detonation yet but If I do Im afraid of the outcome at 24psi boost.

I do plan this winter to build another engine and save my stocker. I would like to strengthen the bottom end( girdle, steel billet main caps) add a roller cam and ported heads and intake and of course a bigger turrrbo!:biggrin: Should I buy a forged steel crank for piece of mind along with some better rods, or just use the factory pieces?? Ive heard people say if the block, crank, and rods are properly prepped they can take some serious abuse.

I would like to get the car into the mid-high 10's. Reliably.

Currently I have a TE60 turbo with the garrett .63 exhaust housing. What turbo would you guys and gals recommend also??

Thanks.

 

[86 TR]

anyone??

 

[NJ Torque]

With ported heads, your TE60 should take you into 10.50's with the right setup.

 

[86 TR]

Do you think a stock turbo crank, rods, will take this much abuse with a girdle and billet main caps of course????

 

[countrybumpkin]

Parts

A STROKER KIT IS NICE DLS HAS NICE PEICES I HAVE ONE FOR SALE NIB COMPLETE SET BALANCED BY DAN @ DLS ALSO HAVE PARTS TO GET THE 109 INTO THE NINES WITH YOUR TURBO ALL PARTS ARE NEW AND NEVER USED HEADS/CAM/INTAKE/STROKER KIT ETC 305 725 2541 OR GENERATORSRUS124@YAHOO.COM:biggrin:

 

[turbodave231]

A prepped 109 block can withstand some serious stress and not come apart. Forced induction engines (stock or stage) won't tolerate detonation very long.

Unprepped stock engines have gone into the high 10's (Tim Stockwell) and not disassembled themselves.

If I were doing a 109 block, I'd install all 4 steel caps, studs and a girdle. I'd also have bronze bushings installed in the lifter bores so a solid roller cam could be used. I'd bypass all the Hydraulic roller cam stuff and go right for the good stuff.

I'd look very seriously at major oiling improvements like the AMP external oiling system (similar to the Dutwieller system). Either sytem eliminates the multitude of 90 degree turns in the stock front cover and will provide superior oil pressure. Every 90 degree turn drops oil pressure 10 pounds according the Buick Motorsports book.

 

[MSDGN]

I have about 30-40 mid 10 sec runs on my motor plus another 20-30 runs in the upper 10's...girdled 109 block...stock mains...stock TTA crank...stock rods...no problems yet but I always run VP C-16 and tune for zero knock...how long will it last...???..who knows...

 

[gnxtc2]

If I were doing a 109 block, I'd install all 4 steel caps, studs and a girdle. I'd also have bronze bushings installed in the lifter bores so a solid roller cam could be used. I'd bypass all the Hydraulic roller cam stuff and go right for the good stuff.

You don't have to do this anymore. Crower makes a solid roller lifter with a shielded roller. TA sells 'em. Not cheap, last time I saw the 'em, they were around $450 for 12.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[turbodave231]

Good to know that TA sells the shielded foot lifters, definitely an option

Still there is another advantage to bronze bushings. You can limit the amount of oil going to the lifter and rocker arm. A .030 hole in the bushing would restrict the oil "upstairs". More volume to oil the mains and rods. The 109 block wasn't blessed with the best oiling system design and every little bit helps.

I would think a full prepped 109 could handle 650-700 HP on a regular basis. Should be good for low 10's

DR

 

[pacecarta]

109 ..stock crank ,mains ,bolts , rods and pistons ...no studs ,billet or girdle.. flat tappet cam
to date over 300 mid 10 passes and has been 10.30 most were 126-128 passes , and still going (knock on wood)

dont detonate and it can do it but common sense and many guys who havent been so lucky at lower levels says do the center mains at a minimum or do a girdle for longevity if a stock crank is being used

 

[Nick Micale]

.... Last year my best E.T. and Mph was 12.20 @ 109 MPH...... Now I want to go faster yet!!

I was wondering how much power can a well prepped 109 block with a girdle, billet main caps and stock crankshaft and rods take?? ........................Thanks.

You see posts and hear about stock blocks running 10's and not having any problems or breaking parts, BUT you very seldom hear about the ones that come apart and trash just about all the internal parts.

Taking a 20 year-old cast crank into the 10's is asking for trouble. The 109 block, with at least caps, can easily survive in the 10's. The weak link is the cast crank. It has much more flex than the forged crank, and we have seen many of them crack. Lots of the info is old, and the cranks now have more miles and years. Even street driving subtracts life from the crank as it is still subject to fatigue, and has a much shorter life span than a forged, high strength steel piece.

By the same token, we have seen the forged cranks punished with detonation and very high revs, and still be fine even with damaged bearings.

For every post I have seen about someone bragging about their 10 sec. stock, we have done just as many rebuilds on damaged 10 sec. engines!:biggrin:

OK, I am done venting, good luck on whatever you decide.:smile:

 

[MSDGN]

I agree with Nick about using old stock cranks in a 10 second buildup and expecting it to hold up...definitely go forged crank...the only reason I went with stock parts is that when I built my motor I had a brand new TTA crank that I had bought years ago and also had a new set of stock rods...on top of that there were no reasonably priced forged cranks at the time...

 

[bodycount]

I guess you can say Ive got the bug of going faster, faster, faster. Last year my best E.T. and Mph was 12.20 @ 109 MPH. This year I added a turbo, I/C, and downpipe and went deep into the 11's. Awesome. Now I want to go faster yet!!

I was wondering how much power can a well prepped 109 block with a girdle, billet main caps and stock crankshaft and rods take?? Reason I ask this is because the times Ive run in my sig. is nothing more than a stock bottom end with arp main studs, forged pistons, and a flat tappet cam. No billet caps or anything. Good rod bolts of course. But at the power level Im making right now Im getting concerned about the bottom end. I really don't want to be a member of the DOTC quite yet. I haven't had any serious detonation yet but If I do Im afraid of the outcome at 24psi boost.

I do plan this winter to build another engine and save my stocker. I would like to strengthen the bottom end( girdle, steel billet main caps) add a roller cam and ported heads and intake and of course a bigger turrrbo!:biggrin: Should I buy a forged steel crank for piece of mind along with some better rods, or just use the factory pieces?? Ive heard people say if the block, crank, and rods are properly prepped they can take some serious abuse.

I would like to get the car into the mid-high 10's. Reliably.

Currently I have a TE60 turbo with the garrett .63 exhaust housing. What turbo would you guys and gals recommend also??

Thanks.

Your car is fast!

You have really good times with your combo, I would try tuning what you have with alky and an extender chip before digging into the motor. I do believe the best bang for the buck if you dug into the engine would be a set of good flowing heads. I wish my combo ran as nearly well as yours. I'll found out in a week or two.

 

[turbodave231]

Nick is right on the money with his comments. a stock bottom end (cast caps, cast crank, cast rods,and cast pistons) is living on borrowed time in the 500-550 HP range. Yes, it will take that punishment for awhile, but sooner or later, the crank will break or the main webs in the block will give up and BANG!

A steel crank, good rods, and caps/girdle should yield a reliable shortblock that run low 10's high 9's. Head gaskets are still the fuse with this combo and probably always will be with only 8 head bolts.

I ran my 100% stock 109 block engine down to 10.83@125 and regularly twisted it to 6000 RPM. But I knew that it wouldn't keep doing that forever. I backed off and ran it in the 11.0s and it never gave a problem.