Bunch of brake quetions....and some suspension

[Rafs-T-Type]

I was thinking about doing some brake upgrading and wondering what I should go with. I would like to take the car on some street courses eventually, but would still like to have the option of running 15" wheels, since that's what i currently have. 1. So should I just drop the bucks and go with Baer, or Wilwood, or do the blazer brakes? 2. Also is it worth getting those AFX spindles for better geometry? 3. Should I get a drop spindle? 4. Will I need taller then my 5658 coils? I also plan on getting new upper and lower control arms (front only as the rear is h and r). 5. Which ones should I go with? 6. If I'm doing all this should I grab some new pitman arms or anything else.

Any input would be greatly appreciated :biggrin:

 

[scot w.]

I was thinking about doing some brake upgrading and wondering what I should go with. I would like to take the car on some street courses eventually, but would still like to have the option of running 15" wheels, since that's what i currently have. 1. So should I just drop the bucks and go with Baer, or Wilwood, or do the blazer brakes? 2. Also is it worth getting those AFX spindles for better geometry? 3. Should I get a drop spindle? 4. Will I need taller then my 5658 coils? I also plan on getting new upper and lower control arms (front only as the rear is h and r). 5. Which ones should I go with? 6. If I'm doing all this should I grab some new pitman arms or anything else.

Any input would be greatly appreciated :biggrin:

When it comes to suspension & brakes I tend to compare them as buying a Mountain bike, You get what you pay for! What have you done to the car so far?

Here are my thoughts on you running a few Road Courses:

1) If you plan on running any road courses the Blazer brakes will Not hold up, period! For starters the rotor thickness is not thick enough to handle the heat so I would recommend BAER or Wilwood and I lean towards BAER simply because they have complete bolt on sets for our G-Body cars.. BAER is under MANY pro-touring cars and still holding up fine...

2) That is up to you if you want them or not, I think my DSE equipped car will compete just as well as a car equipped with the AFX spindles so to me they are not worth it at this level... Not saying they are bad, not knocking them in any way as I am sure they work but what happens is it boils down to "How much difference will they make at this level"?

3) Drop Spindle? NO!

4) No, you shouldn't.

5) Answered in #4

6) I would spend the money on a few other items instead like "Tires", "Bracing", Etc...

Again these are just my thoughts taken from my experiences with my car and how it performs....

Scot W.

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

Thanks for the replies Scott. Other mods I currently have are the lower moogs in the rear too, Qa1 on all four corners, H and R rear sway and control arms, new poly body bushings, under hood braces, rear seat braces, and a SC and C front chasis brace. Also question 5 is what upper and lower control arms should i go with? I forget what brand, but one of them changes the geometry. Thanks.

Edit: One more question....Would it be goofy to just get Baer for the front for now? I won't be able to afford both this year.

 

[83hurstguy]

If you're intent is to stick with 15" wheels, I wouldn't recommend the ATS spindles (as the only brakes you can use are the SSBC's, and they may not fit your stock 15" wheels). I was once in your school of thought (wanting to run the stock wheels), but I eventually changed my mind and went with 17's, and am definitely happy with that choice. However, I regret not doing the AFX spindle mod now... though I do have the SC&C Stage 2 kit with Blazer brakes and spindles, and absolutely love it. The improvement before and after in body roll, ride quality, and perceived handling are amazing (use the word perceived b/c I did not do a before/after skidpad or identical course auto-x to provide definite numbers). I used stock lower arms with Howe ball joints and Del-a-lum bushings installed. The blazer brakes are fine on the street, they'll handle an autocross lap, but I wouldn't plan on hot-lapping the car or going on a road course.

I definitely recommend fixing the geometry in the front... you can use less spring rate to control the car, which keeps the ride quality high. Stay away from drop spindles.

For arms, the adjustable SPC uppers and lowers (SC&C carries them) are very nice... the DSE stuff is always a reliable choice as well. Global West makes good bushings and arms, but follows the old school way of thought with using B-body spindles. I haven't looked at much of the other stuff on the market. You need to make sure you have a plan to get a system that will work together to get you to the end result of whatever you want your car to be. I have parts from different manufacturers all over the car, but it wasn't always because I was just price shopping for the best deals. Different companies have special nuances and advantages to their product, and I picked what I liked from each one, and it has turned into a great street car to drive.

 

[IrvJr]

Now i have read a couple times that blazer brakes wont handle suto x. What if you use better rotors and pads, or even upgraded to better calipers for the blazer?

 

[83hurstguy]

I have Hawk pads on mine with good rotors... the brakes are essentially the same as on my '04 Mustang that I used to have, and I auto-xed that (hot lapped) several times without issue with Hawk pads. I'm sure they'll handle an auto-x.

 

[charlief1]

Well since Scott's weighed in and one of the SC&C lovers has weighed in I thought I'd put my .02 in.

Forget the dropped spindles. They will only cause you issues in the long run. The AFX spindles are nice but not needed. You can go with a taller set of ball joints like Howe or even get the AFCO from a dirt track supplier and make it less expensive. The Howe are rebuildable but the dirt track guys have had problems with the shaft bending it seems.

You can also get off the shelf parts to do the same thing but you'll have to ream the spindle out to make them work. The nice thing about "off the shelf" parts is that you can get a life time warranty on the parts.

Now as far as your springs ect go most people don't understand that the chasis and suspension must work together to make the car work the way you want. The best way to do this is to get a bunch of books and start reading up on how to do it. This includes scalling the car to know what your front to rear bias and cross weights are. Once you know where the weight is sitting you can figure out what springs need to go where.

Spring heights and rates will influence how the car handles as well as how it sits. This is one of the reasons that weight jackers were created. You can use buckets as well to change the heights. The use of height adjustments will also change your weight bias on all angles which can help you make the car handle better.

This can get very involved both mathmatically and financially so what I honestly suggest is to get a system that is from one source rather than piece it out. The DSE is one of the best out there and if you call Scott he will give you a better idea of what they're system is capable of.

If you want a second opinion of how well the system he sells works call Richard Clark and ask him. He was so impressed with the DSE system in Scotts car he'll be putting it on one of his, and that should tell you something right there.:biggrin:

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

The best way to do this is to get a bunch of books and start reading up on how to do it.I am here to avoid this like many others This includes scalling the car to know what your front to rear bias and cross weights are. I think this is a little too involved for where I'm at.

This can get very involved both mathmatically and financially so what I honestly suggest is to get a system that is from one source rather than piece it out. This is next to impossible. Frame bracing, springs, shocks, control arms, sway bars, brakes, etc. I definitely believe that some mix and matching is not a bad thing. For instance I am not changing my H and R rear setup.

If you want a second opinion of how well the system he sells works call Richard Clark and ask him. He was so impressed with the DSE system in Scotts car he'll be putting it on one of his, and that should tell you something right there.:biggrin:

I do appreciate your time and opinion you put into the site, but my semi-educated opinion is in another place from you on this one.

 

[charlief1]

I do appreciate your time and opinion you put into the site, but my semi-educated opinion is in another place from you on this one.

Not arguing with you but I will point out that I spent 29 years so far working on cars for a living in some way. shape, form, or fashion. I was also a crew member on an SCCA GT1 Corvette in the early to middle 80's and then went to FF1600 until 89. The GT1 car made Texas regonal winner every year and the FF1600 made national every year I was on the team. I was the suspension guy in both cases so I do know a little about suspension systems after all. I still work on dirt track cars which may be different but it's still about the system for the purpose you're planing on using the car for. Get some education in engineering like I did at MTSU In TN and maybe you can catch up to where I'm coming from. I'm also damn proud to be an Aggie with a degree to prove it.

 

[scot w.]

I do appreciate your time and opinion you put into the site, but my semi-educated opinion is in another place from you on this one.

You can certainly leave your H&R rear set up but I think Charlie was getting at for Optimal Performance and ride quality was trying to convey that the springs & shocks need to be Matched so they work together properly. DSE matched their shocks valving to their coil spring rate, they even took the time to engineer the timing of the jounce bumpers in the shock to provide a shock & spring system that provides great handling along with a great ride. Key word there is "Engineer"...

I am yet to see a set of Rear upper & lower control arms sold today that articulate like the DSE arms do. I literally done a test with my old Boxed upper & lowers with the wheels hanging on a two post lift and couldn't get the wheels into the wheel well with the boxed arms, took them off installed the DSE upper & lower arms and done it again but this time I could literally shove the rear wheel into the wheel well with ease and without bind. This helps keep the rear tires planted at all times and lets the suspension do the work that it should. The drag racing companies offer wonderful products but they are after a different niche than we are, there products are aimed towards the drag racing crowd and ours are aimed towards the Auto-X, Roadracing crowd. Both two different areas... Will the DSE stuff work for drag racing? sure why not but it was designed with handling in mind.


Yes I did take Richard Clark for a drive at the GS Nationals this year and he couldn't believe how the car handled & stopped and once he got out he said "We will be building me one of these after thanksgiving" for the TB.com Auto-X in March... I also took several other people for a ride like Cal Hartline, and other wondering customers and they were all shocked! JD even drove it himself...

I save proving myself or the car for on the pavement, I don't sit here and tell anyone what is the best but what I do tell people is from personal experience with my car and how it works on and off the course...


Scot W.

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

So do you think I should ditch my QA1's, lower moogs, and SC&C front frame brace and just get the whole DSE package? I have a feeling I may know the answer already

 

[charlief1]

So do you think I should ditch my QA1's, lower moogs, and SC&C front frame brace and just get the whole DSE package? I have a feeling I may know the answer already

No, I don't think you do. You need to do more research on suspensions systems and try other cars that have different systems or mods on them and decide for yourself, rather than take the info from someone else that doesn't make his own parts or use them.

I won't be using a DSE suspension on my car but I will have a modified system on mine. Scott knows what I'm doing but I won't say until I get everything together to do it. Some things won't be posted because I just don't want people to know everything.

 

[scot w.]

So do you think I should ditch my QA1's, lower moogs, and SC&C front frame brace and just get the whole DSE package? I have a feeling I may know the answer already

Nope, The front frame brace is fine, ANY braces added will do nothing but add to the rigidity of these cars which helps!

I think you should do the front brakes like you mentioned and go see how the car performs on a Auto-X / Roadcourse and go from there because you have quite a bit of aftermarket stuff on the car already and I'm sure it handles pretty decent now.

Doing an Auto-X is a good way for anyone to see how your suspension is working, how your brakes work and how your parts hold up to the abuse plus it gives you better driving skills as well. It is also a good way to test out new changes/mods done to the car.. The good thing about an Auto-X is there are SCCA events in just about every region of the country for people to come out onto a closed course and brush up on their driving skills, test their parts and just have fun...

My recommendation is up grade the brakes like you mentioned and go testing!


Scot W.

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

Would it be stupid to just do the front brakes for now and upgrade the drums a little further down the road?

 

[charlief1]

Since most of the braking is done in the front of the vehicle no. That will give you a better idea how much you want to upgrade the backs. If you decide to go with the stock spindle you really may want to look at the blazer spindles instead. You can adapt 13" rotors to them much easier and no cutting.

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

I was going to go with the 11" or 11.75" or whatever they are so I can still run 15" wheels.

 

[charlief1]

Then the Blazer spindle will be the least expensive option out there. One other thing you might look at is the taller ball joints while you're at it. I actually found them fairly reasonably priced on lefthanderchasis.com. You can get stock, .5" or 1" longer so you can do both or just 1 ball joint. Either upper or lower 1" longer and the other one can be stock then. If you want more offset then you can add another .5" ball joint and go from there.

 

[scot w.]

I was going to go with the 11" or 11.75" or whatever they are so I can still run 15" wheels.

The BAER brake SS4+ kit offers the following:

SS4+ kit fits most 15" wheels (some 14")

* Two-piece, 11" rotor 1" thick, curved directional, drilled & slotted, zinc plated.
* 4-piston caliper, lug mount, stainless steel pistons.
* Standard Caliper colors are: Red w/black writing, Black w/red, Silver w/red
* Kit comes with stainless steel braided brake lines and all mounting hardware.

Call us if your interested and we will send you a template to see if this kit will fit your wheel before you even purchase!


Scot W.

 

[IrvJr]

Im switching to the blazer spindles soon. Charlie what is the 13" rotor option you mentioned?

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

Where can you get these blazer spindles? Every search I've done leads me to drop and raise spindles, or spindle parts, but not stock spindles. Scott, that was the baer brake setup I was going to go with. My front suspension is pretty loose right now, though I still need to install the sc and c brace. I started with fitment problems and now I lost the hardware :redface:. So i think for this year my part list is going to go like this: Jeep Grand Cherokee steering shaft, Blazer spindles(if I can find them), front baer brakes, and 1" higher ball joints. Larger wheels will have to weight so next summer testing will begin with 15" wheels and drag radials. How does that sound to get me started? also bear in mind that it's not like I'm taking anything to a pro level. Its just something I want to do for fun. Also thanks everyone for your input. It is much appreciated!