Class rules for BG Hybrid Street Class.

[V6DVette]

Craptacular, another class I can't race in. Why do good ideas get turned into regulated, obese visions of what they should be.

Reading those rules makes it look like they were built around someones car. Manual T-brake but no electronic ones. A/A intercoolers but no liquid ones. Working wipers? Stock unwelded intakes? 70mm turbo (and that antiquated 3 bolt design)? No stage blocks or TA blocks? What about nitrous? Tire limitations - why? Let the Opel and my car run, build something faster if you want to win.

I'm thinking I'll just stick to Indy from here on out.

I agree. Where can ya "run whatcha brung" or built? After more the 20 years of working on my vette, its always been in the back of my head to someday race it at one of these events. After all this isn't a big $$$ race. Its just for fun. I think anyone going to one of theses races would love to see what someone else's Buick powered car can do.
How about making it a class that as long as its built safe for the speed you're dialing in at, go for it. RACE!
Maybe I'm wrong but I think anyone who builds hybrids wouldn't complain about someone elses car that has bigger tires, turbo or 4 link. We built our cars for US! Its what hot rodding is all about. Not a bunch of rules.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

I am not challenging the rule, just trying to learn it purpose

I am not sure I understand your question slim. Can you reiterate for me please sir.

Jim C.

The way I understand it, the reason for the rules is to level the playing field a little bit and because it’s leveled (limited) the broke racers like me can have a change at competing.

That said, just about every one can afford 10, 11, 12 or even 13 inch foot print tires.
So my question based on my understanding of the purpose of the rules is,
why is there a limit on the size of the tires?
Or what is the purpose of limiting the tire size?

 

[BillyRValentine]

Apparently there are some that need to go back and re-read my posts where I stated the following -

...If the rules need changing please let me know which ones and how it will benefit the class overall. If there is room for improvement then I am all for it as I believe that many minds are much more capable than one.

Jim C.

and

...That's not what this class is going to be about. No BIG money prizes, just some guys and gals racing their cars for fun like it used to be.

Jim C.

I see some complaining about there are too many rules and this and that but not one suggestion of "Hey Jim, I think we could improve turnout and the overall fun factor if we did the following with this rule and that rule". So you ladies and germs want a "run what ya brung hybrid" class? I am all for it but there had better be a turnout or all the folks who are raising the most h*ll now will be the first I ask where they were. Here is an idea to toss out there -

Break the class into two sub classes-

One uses the rules posted as of now

The other uses a "Balls Out - Let em hang and hope they hang low enough!!!" philosophy. Ya'll let me know. I bet I know who will be busting azz time after time in that one.

Jim C.

 

[BillyRValentine]

The way I understand it, the reason for the rules is to level the playing field a little bit and because it’s leveled (limited) the broke racers like me can have a change at competing.

That said, just about every one can afford 10, 11, 12 or even 13 inch foot print tires.
So my question based on my understanding of the purpose of the rules is,
why is there a limit on the size of the tires?
Or what is the purpose of limiting the tire size?

Gotcha chief, great minds think alike. You are exactly on target in your thought process. My thinkin regarding the tire size is to limit it so that it helps even out the playing field. I believe it gives the average Joe a better chance to win as much as someone with pockets to their ankles that dumps cubic dollars into their cars as you can only get so much power down with a small tire size even with the best DFI and timing technology. Having said that as you can see above some of the heavy hitters want a "Let Em Hang!!!" hybrid class from what I am gathering and with enough of a response I say we do it but it would be a sub-catagory of the existing class. the two sub classes WOULD NOT be competing against each other. I would say let's create a whole seperate class but I don't believe that there would be enough of a turnout in the "Let Em Hang!!!" sub-class for it to be a class unto its own. Any thoughts?

Jim C.

 

[Grumpy]

Jim we "need" car count .. I would wonder how many would go into an "Outlaw" type class?? I really wonder how many cars will actually show up to race ??!! .. I have to have Melissa's GN ready for the "Alky" class ..My Mazda is goin to the chassis shop tomorrow or friday to take out some brackets by the rear end.. then its back to me to get running ... ok now another .02's from me to me this is goin to be hybrid street car race .. would these "Outlaw" car go on a cruise with the street cars :biggrin: ok back under my rock

 

[BillyRValentine]

Jim we "need" car count .. I would wonder how many would go into an "Outlaw" type class?? I really wonder how many cars will actually show up to race ??!!

Alright the gaunlet has been thrown down. So how many of you heavy hitters will show up to race if we put this together for you. Here is your chance so speak up now!!!

..I have to have Melissa's GN ready for the "Alky" class ..My Mazda is goin to the chassis shop tomorrow or friday to take out some brackets by the rear end.. then its back to me to get running ... ok now another .02's from me to me this is goin to be hybrid street car race .. would these "Outlaw" car go on a cruise with the street cars :biggrin: ok back under my rock

No worries as the street class is set. Sounds like you are getting things together for a couple of classes. I think this is going to be one of the best years yet. Plus it will be the 20th aniversary for the 87 GNs and Turbo-Ts. How cool is that!?

Jim C.

 

[67turboCamaro]

I would not be interested in running the "Outlaw class". I would be heavily out gunned. My car is a street car and can be driven anywhere. The rules that are knocking me out are not that big a deal. If manual trans brakes are allowed, what sense does it make that electronic are not?? Also each car should be legal for the speeds they run, so my seats should not be an issue. My tire footprint is 1/2" to wide, Is a making the rule 11" instead of 10.5 going to make that big a deal? Allowing only iron heads will hurt car count also.

 

[Nashty]

"Heavy hitter"? Cubic dollars? I built the car myself with few exceptions. It's unpainted because I can't afford it. I pull it in a 6year old motor home in a 5 year old trailer with genuine plywood interior. My garage is just that, a stall in my garage that my wife would like to see filled with kids bicycles and the many other toys that are in the yard most of the time. Get it? I gotno big bucks. Everything on my car was used practically.

How bout this for a rule?

No aftermarket crankshafts or rods. All factory crankshafts must be cut a minimum .020" to be legal. Max CID of 235.

I remember when TSM was a neat class till Bamford exploited the rules and basically turned it into what it is now. They should have just let him win for a while then he'd go away bored and the TSM could have returned to what it was intended to be. It's a joke now.

The hybrid race was never supposed to be a "rules" race. That's why they're hybrids, they don't fit in the other categories. Kinda like an orphanage for hotrods with BV6's in them.

I can't guarantee I'll be there one way or the other. Heck, my car still has a broken windshield from November cause I can't afford to fix it right now. I'm dumping all my change into a Jr Dragster.

I appreciate the effort you've obviously put into the rules. You've taken it very seriously and with great vision. In the end, your car count may go down by one or two and I promise you that I won't be mad about it (regardless of my tone earlier).

Regards,

Roger

 

[BillyRValentine]

I would not be interested in running the "Outlaw class". I would be heavily out gunned.

My car is a street car and can be driven anywhere. The rules that are knocking me out are not that big a deal. If manual trans brakes are allowed, what sense does it make that electronic are not??

After having run both electronic trans-brakes and my stage right it is my contention that the stage right is not in the same ball park compared to an electronic one. I will review this rule and see what can be done. I can FIRMLY state this though - If electronic brakes are allowed they will NOT be hooked to any type of two step or the like. I want this to be a good time for everyone but do not want someone coming in doing their impersonation of Smokey Yunick and trying to exploit every rule just because they think they can. I believe your car is what you say that it is as I kept a close eye on it this past year and looked it over. I would like to see you run in the class so let me see what kind of compromise if any I can come up with.

Also each car should be legal for the speeds they run, so my seats should not be an issue.

I agree with that as well and the seat issue is more related to the domino effect that tends to take place with them on occasion. By this I mean someone installs a set of fiberglass seats, then decides to gut the dash or remove it and install an aluminum unit, then door panels and the like but hollers about it being a street car the entire time. We all know that the term "Street Car" is relative to each and every one of us. However in this instance these will be street cars in this class. One train of thought would be to loosen a few of the rules but then have a ride and drive. If that were to take place then we could mark off a distance and that would be that. Any thoughts?

My tire footprint is 1/2" to wide, Is a making the rule 11" instead of 10.5 going to make that big a deal?

You know after looking at your car this past year and it being a drag radial class let me figure this one out. I believe we may be able do something about this one as well.

Allowing only iron heads will hurt car count also.

I will review this issue as well and I agree to what you say above but realize that this is true, but again this one stands the potential to be a slippery slope in that the bullshidt begins with "Well, if we can have aluminum heads why can't we have Stage blocks?". This too is an issue as I would really like to see the gent with the Stage powered Vette run as I know for a fact he will jump in his car and drive most anywhere. This is why I am asking for help with the rules and imput into what if any changes need to be made and how they will increase both the car count and fun factor. I thought real hard about indexing the class but then asked myself - where does it all stop and the fun begin?

Jim C.

 

[BillyRValentine]

"Heavy hitter"? Cubic dollars? I built the car myself with few exceptions. It's unpainted because I can't afford it. I pull it in a 6year old motor home in a 5 year old trailer with genuine plywood interior. My garage is just that, a stall in my garage that my wife would like to see filled with kids bicycles and the many other toys that are in the yard most of the time. Get it? I gotno big bucks. Everything on my car was used practically.

Roger, that wasn't directed at you. I have kept up with your car for several years now. I first read about it in the post about your lack of brakes and the front end of your truck. I checked out your ride at the nats and admire you for the accomplishments as well as you doing what needed to be done just to get there.

How bout this for a rule?

No aftermarket crankshafts or rods. All factory crankshafts must be cut a minimum .020" to be legal. Max CID of 235.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

I remember when TSM was a neat class till Bamford exploited the rules and basically turned it into what it is now. They should have just let him win for a while then he'd go away bored and the TSM could have returned to what it was intended to be. It's a joke now.

The hybrid race was never supposed to be a "rules" race. That's why they're hybrids, they don't fit in the other categories. Kinda like an orphanage for hotrods with BV6's in them.

This is the problem Roger, from a majority of the phone calls and emails I have gotten people don't want a bracket class, they want to run heads up. Having said that it isn't fair to the average Joe who has busted their azz to get his car ready to run in the class and gets put out by a car that pushes the rules; ya know? The other issue is that a majority of the hybrids are not running single digit ET's and say that a car that pushes the rules has the field covered. Someone has to run them the first and second rounds. That being said, we both know that no one wants to get all the way to the Nats only to know they don't stand a chance in h*ll of winning even the first round because they got paired up with a car that is 2-seconds quicker than he/she is.

I can't guarantee I'll be there one way or the other. Heck, my car still has a broken windshield from November cause I can't afford to fix it right now. I'm dumping all my change into a Jr Dragster.

I appreciate the effort you've obviously put into the rules. You've taken it very seriously and with great vision. In the end, your car count may go down by one or two and I promise you that I won't be mad about it (regardless of my tone earlier).

Regards,

Roger

Roger, I didn't take your comments to heart. You are voicing your opinion over an issue that you would like to see come to fruition so that you may be able to run your car. I understand and respect that and thank you for the clarification. Check out my next post and give me some input if you will. This is what we need to get all of our hybrid brethren in on the fun.

Jim C.

 

[BillyRValentine]

What if the class were broken down into two catogories such as this - 10.00 and up and a 9.99 and quicker? Obviously the rules would be "looser" for the 9.99 and quicker index. Let me see what I can put together for ya'll review and we will go from there. I would really like to see everyone get to show there stuff to the rest of the world so I will see what I can come up with. Any thoughts or input?

Jim C.

 

[Grumpy]

What if the class were broken down into two catogories such as this - 10.00 and up and a 9.99 and quicker? Obviously the rules would be "looser" for the 9.99 and quicker index. Let me see what I can put together for ya'll review and we will go from there. I would really like to see everyone get to show there stuff to the rest of the world so I will see what I can come up with. Any thoughts or input?

Jim C.

Jim that may work a lot easier .. plus when ya go in the 9's ya have more safety stuff now if I only had a car that ran :biggrin:

 

[BillyRValentine]

So what if we create a 9.99 and quicker index part of the class and apply these rules to the 9.99 and quicker portion?

Hybrid Street Class – HSC (9.99 and quicker)

General


• Heads-up 4-tenths pro tree start and pro ladder. (1 vs 16, 2 vs 15, 3 vs 14, 4 vs 13, 5 vs 12, etc....)

• No peer technical inspections relating to safety equipment rules by class participants or peers, Beech Bend Raceway track safety technician personnel will make all rulings on track safety related items.

• Winner and runner-up are subject to re-tech immediately after final round or at any other time.

• Any entrant caught trying to deliberately break the rules will be disqualified from the HSC class.

• This class is for “Hybrid Street Cars” that are tagged and registered to be driven legally on the street.

Body

• Any mass production model from any manufacture is allowed.

• Any Regal entering this class cannot have been originally equipped with a turbo Buick motor.

Chassis

• Helmet required.

• Cars must pass track safety inspection.

• Car should possess all applicable safety equipment for potential ET/speeds attained.

• Drive shaft safety loop required.

• Driver's name and club decal on side/quarter windows allowed. Sponsor/vendor decal is acceptable on the rear window.

Engine

• Any Buick or aftermarket Buick style V6 block and heads.

Turbo

• Any 3 or 4 bolt turbo.

• Twin setups are allowed.


Intercooler

• Air-to-Air intercooler required or Air-to-liquid allowed.


Engine Management & Fuel System

• Stock ECM or aftermarket DFI system allowed.

• Any fuel injectors allowed, 6 maximum.

• Gasoline (Race and pump fuel.) as well as alcohol injection allowed.


Engine Compartment

• Any engine compartment dress up allowed.

• Battery, one (1) only and it may be in any location.

• Any type electric engine cooling fan required.

• Any radiator allowed.


Transmission

• Any transmission allowed. ( Jeffco, Lenco or Liberty type transmissions are allowed. )

• Shift assistance such as air, gas or electronic solenoid operated shifters allowed.

• Any size torque converter or clutch acceptable.

• Any transmission oil cooler and pan allowed.

• Trans-brakes, two-step and other launching devices are allowed.


Tires & Wheels

• Any size slick or D.O.T tire is allowed but must be in good shape and capable of withstanding speeds achieved.

• Tires may be screwed to the rim.

• Any wheel may be used.


Power Adder

• N2O allowed.

Jim C.

 

[UR50SLO]

I'm all for a class for Hybrids as I've posted in another forum.

You all can go round and round about what is/isn't allowed.

I just want to be a part of the Hybrid class regardless of where you put me.

I'll just be there for the fun...

I think anyone going to one of theses races would love to see what someone else's Buick powered car can do.
How about making it a class that as long as its built safe for the speed you're dialing in at, go for it. RACE!
Maybe I'm wrong but I think anyone who builds hybrids wouldn't complain about someone elses car that has bigger tires, turbo or 4 link. We built our cars for US! Its what hot rodding is all about. Not a bunch of rules.

Well put.. could not have said it better!
Scott~

 

[BillyRValentine]

I'm all for a class for Hybrids as I've posted in another forum.

You all can go round and round about what is/isn't allowed.

I just want to be a part of the Hybrid class regardless of where you put me.

I'll just be there for the fun...



Well put.. could not have said it better!
Scott~

Well cheese here is your chance, we can break the class into two groups. It could be the "Street" portion of the class which will use the first set of rules we posted (That part of the class is set and is a definite.). We can also have an "Open Comp." portion which could use the following rules, or should I say lack there of -

Hybrid Street Class (Open Comp.) – HSC (O.C.)

General


• Heads-up 4-tenths pro tree start and pro ladder. (1 vs 16, 2 vs 15, 3 vs 14, 4 vs 13, 5 vs 12, etc....)

• No peer technical inspections relating to safety equipment rules by class participants or peers, Beech Bend Raceway track safety technician personnel will make all rulings on track safety related items.

• Winner and runner-up are subject to re-tech immediately after final round or at any other time.

• Any entrant caught trying to deliberately break the rules will be disqualified from the HSC class.

Body

• Any mass production model from any manufacture is allowed.

• Any Regal entering this class cannot have been originally equipped with a turbo Buick motor.

Chassis

• Tube chassis are allowed.

• Any suspension setup is allowed.

• Cars must pass track safety inspection (Helmet is required).

• Car should possess all applicable safety equipment for potential ET/speeds attained.

• Drive shaft safety loop required.

• Driver's name and club decal on side/quarter windows allowed. Sponsor/vendor decal is acceptable on the rear window.

Engine

• Any Buick or aftermarket Buick style V6 block and heads.

Turbo

• Any configuration of 3 or 4 bolt turbo.

• Twin setups are allowed.


Intercooler

• Any intercooler setup is allowed.


Engine Management & Fuel System

• Stock ECM or aftermarket DFI system allowed.

• Any fuel injectors are allowed.

• Gasoline (Race and pump fuel.) as well as alcohol injection allowed.


Engine Compartment

• Any engine compartment dress up allowed.

• Any type electric engine cooling fan required.

• Any radiator allowed.


Transmission

• Any transmission allowed. ( Jeffco, Lenco or Liberty type transmissions are allowed. )

• Shift assistance such as air, gas or electronic solenoid operated shifters allowed.

• Any size torque converter or clutch acceptable.

• Any transmission oil cooler and pan allowed.

• Trans-brakes, two-step and other launching devices are allowed.


Tires & Wheels

• Any size slick or D.O.T tire is allowed but must be in good shape and capable of withstanding speeds achieved.

• Tires may be screwed to the rim.

• Any wheel may be used.


Power Adder

• N2O allowed.

Jim C.


Folks were raising h*ll about the rules being too stringent so we will have the above set for the "Open Comp." sub-class. As you can see there really are no rules. If both have a great turnout then we will keep them both, if one is severely lackin more than the other then the better of the two will stay. I can tell you this though - If there isn't a decent turnout I will be hard pressed to have any ammo to push for a second year so let's have a good showing.

Jim C.

 

[UR50SLO]

I just want to be a part of the Hybrid class regardless of where you put me.

I'll just be there for the fun...

Maby I'll just re-post the most important part of my post...

What ever class I fall into I'll be happy just to be there and learn and exchange Ideas with other Hybrid'rs (if that's a word). At this point it's a place for the class to grow. Set up the basic rules as you have and we'll see how it go's for the first year. I don't think anyone is going to build a Hybrid for just one race a year.
Just my thoughts.
Your doing a fine job and everyone's just feeling out where they'll be.
I'll just be happy to be a part of a actual class there~
Scott~

 

[V6DVette]

Maby I'll just re-post the most important part of my post...

What ever class I fall into I'll be happy just to be there and learn and exchange Ideas with other Hybrid'rs (if that's a word). At this point it's a place for the class to grow. Set up the basic rules as you have and we'll see how it go's for the first year. I don't think anyone is going to build a Hybrid for just one race a year.Just my thoughts.
Your doing a fine job and everyone's just feeling out where they'll be.
I'll just be happy to be a part of a actual class there~
Scott~

Another point that should be considered . GMTA:wink:

 

[UR50SLO]

You bet!

Another point that should be considered . GMTA

You started it all with a excellent point.. I'm just adding to the Master's great thoughts :biggrin:

~Scott

 

[Turbo Indian]

sorry it's so late to join the thread. I like the 2 class idea even though I would get thrown into the "outlaw" class that's fine. I sincerely do not believe this class will make it in heads up, but that is just my opinion. as for the first set of rules there is absolutely no way I would be able to fit in, seats, heads, trans brake, intake manifold, throttle body, 70-mm or smaller turbo, cam position sensor, but hey the class is just for fun.

 

[V6DVette]

• Any Regal entering this class cannot have been originally equipped with a turbo Buick motor.


Jim C.

Don't these cars already have a class? Do they check to see if it was an original turbo car in the other classes?
I don't know...Maybe it'd be fun to see a bunch of rag tag hybrids blow the doors off a few TSO cars.:biggrin: