converter talk Billet lockup vs NL and non billet LU/NLU

[tbone87]

I can't wait to get that P T C 9.5 nl behind my new engine cause I am going to run the hell out of it. Zoom zoom. I had the p t c 10 Lu 2800 really liked it also but now going bigger and better. Thanks Chris and Dusty. One more thing Mr. Ford stands behind his products 100% if u have a problem they will fix it.

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[robzombie]

Here are pics of my converter when I had it cut open for a restall.

There is a good reason I went with a billet converter and I saw the proof of why it should do what the builder said it would.

For one thing the tolerances are much tighter than a non billet converter and I was impressed with how well it all fit together and how flat and true the billet surfaces are. The clutch material is larger and made of kevlar, and there are no springs to cushion the lock up engagement, it definetely hits harder when going into luckup.

It feels just like a 1/2 shift not the softer 2/3 shift that some may experience.

I know everyone wants numbers and I will be putting them up as soon as I figure out my P/L and how to use it and know what I'm actually looking at/for to interpret slip and other parameters that are pertinent to honest and accurate results of how it performs..

I will be logging the TCI first as I've been told in another post that someone doesn't want any jabbering or results from a slow POS [my words not his], [his words] 10.80 car so I'm lending the BLU to someone who has a high nine second car and is willing to data log it for me in a faster car than mine so I can make him and others happy.

I also want to see what my converter will handle power wise as I'm looking to go low tens someday also.

Please be patient and stop screaming for numbers. If you want numbers I'll give them but not until someone can help me with P/L to make sure I have it setup properly. I can get it done faster if people who have used the P/L for what I'm trying to do would PM me and help me get the ball rolling faster than I can on my own.

I'm like everyone on here, except those with an agenda trying to line their pockets $150/$200 per unit at a time as I do not and will not sell any converters and am only out for the truth and best product for it's intended usage whether it be street/strip or race only and so forth.

I will continue to work with the builder and address any shortcomings that may result from testing /use of this converter as his goal is to provide the best bang for the buck in the buick community and is dedicated to our cars as much as he is to turbo/nitrous LS and high performance diesels as well as imports.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Just wondering what we're supposed to expect here.

What kind of stall speed and efficiency are you shooting for?

You haven't said it could do anything different than anything else on the market. The 9X11 is a single disc that is proven to run 9's reliably.

Why is this converter any different than that?

Running 9's locked or un-locked?

What tolerances are closer on this billet converter and what the advantage of that is? Your being to general to prove any point. Stator to front, stator to turbine, turbine to rear, clutch to rear... Specifics please so we can all understand your claims.

 

[kidglok]

Dusty,

how fast has your 9.5" been to date?

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Dusty,

how fast has your 9.5" been to date?

With a T400....6.8's at over 200 in Duttweilers car.

8.90's with a 200-4r.

3 in the 7's in TSO, a good many in the 8's and to many to count in the 9's, 10's and 11's.

This is just in the Buick world. These were proven behind 2,000+ hp turbo V8's before I ever got them to work behind a V6.

I think Rob is more focused on the lock- up market. He will have to prove he's doing something that no one else can do. The billet lock up kit he is showing is available to Neil Chance, Yank, Pro-torque, Circle-D, Coan, TCS, Cameron's, PTC....just to name a few. Anyone with a lathe, welder and a little experience can put one of these together themselves.


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[robzombie]

I think Rob is more focused on the lock- up market. Just wondering what we're supposed to expect here.

Yes I am focused on the LU as that's what 90% of the buick community would use if there was a LU that could couple as well as a NLU and hold LU in high HP conditions.
If my LU coupled within 2/4% of the 9.5 NLU would you admit that it's more worthy than a NLU for street driven cars that go to the track versus race cars that run in the 8/9s looking for every tenth possible.

Running 9's locked or un-locked?

Are you kidding?? Locked of course, that's the point of this thread. To prove that you can have a LU that will couple like a NLU but is more streetable than a NLU heat and mileage wise with little to no compromises.

I drive my car 500 miles a week and without LU I would go through more fuel and create more heat in the trans which everyone knows shortens the life of the trans, hence the need for monster trans coolers with any NLU.

You haven't said it could do anything different than anything else on the market. The 9X11 is a single disc that is proven to run 9's reliably.

How well does it couple and what does it cost???

If it's so good and runs in the nines reliably than why are you pushing the 9.5 NLU spragless which creates more heat [common knowledge]and does have more slippage when cruising thus the heat issues. Can they be driven on the street?? Sure they can with a monster cooler but why would you if you could have it all or close to it with a LU regardless of who makes it.

Anyone with a lathe, welder and a little experience can put one of these together themselves.

Almost all true, a lot of experience is needed to machine properly and modify certain off the shelf parts as well as get tolerances where they need to be.

Like I said in earlier posts, the PTC is nothing special internally except for the stator you have made for you and that you use a nissan core.

I posted pics of what my converter is made of not to show that it's parts are one off pieces, but to show the quality of parts and work that goes into it.

If you would post pics of a 9.5 NLU to show what goes into it then people could see all the off the shelf parts in it as well. And don't say that people don't care what's inside as long as they work because most have no clue how they work or what they are looking at.

This thread can be a service to those who want to see what goes into a converter parts wise and what kind of performance they can get out of them as well as what they get for the money they spend.

There is a place for every type of converter out there and I'm just trying to show that unless you race your car more than you drive it on the street a LU is the better choice.

 

[we4Mateo]

^^^^^Stop trolling and post real data. I was interested when this all started, but you still haven't posted anything of value. Why don't you stop trolling and show back up when you have something useful to contribute? You're creating more negativity than is wanted or even remotely necessary with long winded threads that state nothing. Do you really think tons of pics and multiple paragraphs give anything of value to this or any thread without substance ie: real data?

 

[Mr.Spool]

I drive my car everywhere with the ptc 9.5 nl.it cruises within 50rpm of the top notch lu I took out.tranny temps are controlled with an external and synthetic fluid and a good tranny builder.

 

[20psiofevil]

I'm seeing around 16% slip on my new Edge converter not locked. If I were to lock it I'm guessing it would be around 4%(not intended to be locked at wot though). This is with 373 gears, 26" tire, and around 500/500 hp/tq so I kind of knew slip was going to be high. Car did dyno 445/504 with a locked revmax 3400 single disc, and my trap speeds do show it to be making more power with the edge converter as it went 92mph with the revmax and 101mph with the edge.

I will say this though, a similar combo to mine runs a ptc converter (don't know the part #). Built 4.3l v6 mustang with 62-1 masterpower turbo, 15-16psi, and the car went 6.7x @ 103mph. With this being said, both converters seem to couple really well through mid and top range but the ptc out the gate is where this other car has me so far with a 1.44 vs my 1.75 60'.

Also very interesting thread! Very interested in seeing the results from this billet converter.

 

[robzombie]

^^^^^Stop trolling and post real data. I was interested when this all started, but you still haven't posted anything of value. Why don't you stop trolling and show back up when you have something useful to contribute? You're creating more negativity than is wanted or even remotely necessary with long winded threads that state nothing. Do you really think tons of pics and multiple paragraphs give anything of value to this or any thread without substance ie: real data?

KMA. Sorry I'm not trying to create any negativity, I'm not a troll and you pissed me off.

I posted that I'm trying to figure out how to set up my P/L and what to look for so I can put up some logs. Where are all the PMs or posts from the people who want to help me do this.

If you want to help me put the numbers up by pointing out some tips on what to do with the P/L that would be great otherwise shut your pie hole.

I'm intolerant of the attitudes that some of the veterans on this board have towards people who aren't in their click. I've read many old posts including yours and you were in my shoes at one time and asked what might be considered dumb questions when you were a noobie to TRs.

I also have seen through reading old posts that some of the most knowledgeable people have left the board due to not wanting to deal with the egos and attitudes that some possess on here.

I'm starting to see this board for what it is and I'm disappointed because it should/could be more than a handful of people who dictate what is said and what is gospel with these cars.

If people want to criticize results or types of parts used that's fine. I want the same thing as most people here, find the best part at the best price regardless of who makes it or sells it and proof of why it's the best, not just word of mouth as most people don't want to admit when they spent a lot of money on a part that wasn't all that it was hyped up to be.

Just because I don't put up numbers when you want to bad. If my numbers are better than what you expect will you will try to tear them down by saying I used the wrong parameters???

That's why I want help in doing this right so there is no confusion as to the results and that they are measured the same way all others are to keep results equal and fair. You and others have posted since I've asked for help yet not one person has offered any help to me in getting the results that you demand that I post. Has no one read that post?? Why hasn't one person responded to my call for help in how to log it correctly??

If you or anyone else wants the truth then I'm all in for any help that may be offered in getting there. I have no agenda and want to see if this converter is all that it's supposed to be. I want people to see real results so they can make an educated decision as to what works and what doesn't for their particular needs even if this converter turns out to be a POS. If that's the case people will stay away from it. Or if it turns out to be great so be it then they can buy one if they so choose.

One thing I refuse to accept is that a NLU is the best converter for 90% of the TRs out there as I don't think that ten second or slower street cars need a NLU unless the person buying one is led to believe that is the best/only choice available to them. That's why I want people to post logs and numbers to prove their points as well.

I'm willing to post numbers when I can and I already posted pics of the converter inside and out to the quality of what goes into it. Lets see the same for a PTC and other brands if the truth is what we all want, I've looked everywhere on the board and can't find pics of PTC converter internals or parts used.

I'm sure someone with a PTC NL will post up their numbers as well for comparison sake but I want to do the same exact logs with combinations that are as similar to each other to show tangible results that all can see and expect in their cars with same said combos.

Above all I want to keep this thread positive and not run off the rails, please don't post attacks on me or others and let's just try to reach the same goal, what works best in any given situation/combination.

We should learn from each other and respect each other and stick to the facts for every ones sake.

Sorry for the long winded post, sincerely RZ.

 

[we4Mateo]

^^^^^Dude, more long winded paragraphs w/ zero data. No one wants to help you b/c you don't seem all that pleasant. And I use a LU converter and would be glad to purchase a better one that does everything you state it does. That's why I WAS interested in this thread, but I doubt you'll ever post anything that anyone can actually use to come to any real conclusion. I'm glad you're upset though. I refuse to be as that makes the troll win.

BTW, this is funny but I doubt you get the joke... "KMA. Sorry I'm not trying to create any negativity, I'm not a troll and you pissed me off."

 

[we4Mateo]

Mods, don't ever kick this guy off unless totally warranted as that makes trolls happy too, for some stupid reason...

 

[robzombie]

^^^Once again thanks for your help in furthering the quest for betterment on this subject, Your help in getting me to setup the P/L is appreciated. ^^^^

You only further prove my point in last post.

 

[kidglok]

^^^Once again thanks for your help in furthering the quest for betterment on this subject, Your help in getting me to setup the P/L is appreciated. ^^^^

You only further prove my point in last post.

The only way to really test the converter slip % is with a driveshaft speed sensor, you can get a rough idea by comparing your RPM and MPH through the traps. Ive already noticed 3-4% tire growth with drag radials.


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[robzombie]

Do you have one?? Also where can I buy one if you happen to know.

Which one do you use??

Thanks RZ.

 

[kidglok]

Do you have one?? Also where can I buy one that works with the P/L if you happen to know.

Thanks RZ.

yes, but im running a fast xfi, unless the p/l has another speed input im not sure how you would hook it up.

 

[robzombie]

Thanks, there has to be a way to do this with a P/L or inexpensive stand alone device.

I will keep looking.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Yes I am focused on the LU as that's what 90% of the buick community would use if there was a LU that could couple as well as a NLU and hold LU in high HP conditions.
If my LU coupled within 2/4% of the 9.5 NLU would you admit that it's more worthy than a NLU for street driven cars that go to the track versus race cars that run in the 8/9s looking for every tenth possible.

Then you say this.........

Are you kidding?? Locked of course, that's the point of this thread. To prove that you can have a LU that will couple like a NLU but is more streetable than a NLU heat and mileage wise with little to no compromises..

Do you not see the issue here? My NL slips less than 5% at cruise AND WOT. If you want to compare it to my NL then you have to run it un locked. A locked converter at WOT should have 0% slip. If it's slipping, it's burning something up.
When you say this..........Yes I am focused on the LU as that's what 90% of the buick community would use if there was a LU that could couple as well as a NLU and hold LU in high HP conditions.
Welcome to the 1990's. Those who are looking for this have the Vigilante Multi disc and the 9x11 to pick from. All proven by many cars since the 1990's. If this converter of yours has 0% slip at WOT it's not doing anything that other converters haven't done.

If it's so good and runs in the nines reliably than why are you pushing the 9.5 NLU spragless which creates more heat [common knowledge]and does have more slippage when cruising thus the heat issues. Can they be driven on the street?? Sure they can with a monster cooler but why would you if you could have it all or close to it with a LU regardless of who makes it..

More heat doesn't mean excessive heat. All I used was a cheap external B&M cooler from jegs and never had an issue with heat. Neither have the many guys running them. I have one guy currently experiencing heating issues where it's puked fluid and I'm working with him to see if we can fix it. His issue is very un-common. Considering the WOT he's putting to the converter a less efficient LU running unlocked will run even hotter. I'm going to tighten it up and add a sprag just to see if it helps him in his case. In my own testing a sprag didn't reduce heat enough to notice. When you know how to build a spragless converter, you don't need one. Plain and simple. When your slip is already less than 5% at cruise and a sprag may reduce that to 4% you won't see a huge temp difference. For those who feel they can't live without lock-up, I send them to Precision or TCS. Fact is most love the swap to the non lock. You didn't like my suggestion so you went elsewhere. That's perfectly fine.

Like I said in earlier posts, the PTC is nothing special internally except for the stator you have made for you and that you use a nissan core...

Yet no one can figure out why it slips so little while running unlocked....at cruise and WOT behind any kind of power you through at it. The only way others can hang is to try to lock at WOT. Many don't want to lock at WOT to acheive their goals.

If you would post pics of a 9.5 NLU to show what goes into it then people could see all the off the shelf parts in it as well. And don't say that people don't care what's inside as long as they work because most have no clue how they work or what they are looking at...

I don't have to but can gladly do so if someone wants to see it. They have been opened up for all to see and for me to explain how they work at Richard Clark's event. The fact is that core is proven in hundreds of 7 and 8 second cars so it has nothing to show or prove. There's a reason I don't use the 245mm core like he's using for 10 second and faster cars. You'll find out why eventually.

 

[robzombie]

Do you not see the issue here? My NL slips less than 5% at cruise AND WOT.

Okay unlocked as well to show how much slip there is as well as whether the clutch can hold the power when used.

robzombie said: ↑

If you would post pics of a 9.5 NLU to show what goes into it then people could see all the off the shelf parts in it as well. And don't say that people don't care what's inside as long as they work because most have no clue how they work or what they are looking at...​

I don't have to but can gladly do so if someone wants to see it. They have been opened up for all to see and for me to explain how they work at Richard Clark's event. The fact is that core is proven in hundreds of 7 and 8 second cars so it has nothing to show or prove. There's a reason I don't use the 245mm core like he's using for 10 second and faster cars. You'll find out why eventually.

Show one anyways, I haven't been to Richs event as have many others who weren't there and would like to see what's inside of a 9.5 PTC NL .

I would like for you to point out each piece in a pic and explain to me why each part is chosen and how it's the best one for me.

I'm no converter expert and need you to give me a converter for dummies 101 class with pics and an explanation of why the PTC is the way to go.

I promise you I will buy one if it's the best I can get, no BS and I mean it. I'll even pay you're $200.00 commission fee that you get on each sale with a smile and a sincere thank you.

I'm also not talking 7 or 8 sec. cars here LU converters have no place in a car that fast so let's keep this on track or street/ strip [pun intended] and stop trying to change the parameters.

Opel cores have been done to death in 7/8 sec. cars also and spragless converters aren't ideal for street cars as you already well know.

I will find out eventually as you say, that's the point of me doing this.

 

[kidglok]

...and zero slip at WOT doesnt make you faster...