Convertor rubs against front of pump...why?

[greeneyegi]

we were installing a new rebuilt motor,the one we pulled off the tranny 4 months ago.
put the convertor on spun it around until it popped on the input shaft.only problem was the convertor was grinding against the front of the pump housing.Oh $hitt!
so we looked at the other converter and this is what we found.we looked up the numbers and it comes up as a N/L convertor.the big piece that was broke off was welded back on,then grinded smooth.as you can see their was no penetration.
the converter i am putting in is a pro torque 10.5 in LU,came off my transmission,no probs.
i didnt even want to get into another project yet ,because the motor was a whole nother story.
i put my known good converter on the tranny ,put the motor in.their was maybe 1/8 of an inch space between the flexplate and converter,the bolts pulled the converter towards the motor enough to where it didnt make a horrible grinding against the tranny pump.
motor runs,but tranny dont do anything,it dont pump,nuthin.
gimme some ideas on what happened.it dont look like the converter was dropped ,no other dings or scratches.
maybe the previous mechanic/owner forced the converter between the trans and motor and f'd the pump inside?
the shaft on the fd up converter is a half inch shorter than my good one.
the shaft still has the tip on it with the oring.
one other question i got is the brf tag on this tranny is pink.
mine is yellow,whats the colors mean.both are 87s

 

[v6turbo87]

Pull the pump out of the tranny and open it up and see if anything is damaged. I think a pink BRF was an 86 tranny and yellow BRF was an 87?

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[v6turbo87]

And you are sure the slots in the converter hub are engaging the pump? Two set of splines to line up then the slots engage the pump.

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[greeneyegi]

i couldnt go back any further it was rubbing the ribs on the front of the converter,pull it out an 1/8 of an inch it spins fine.
it actually left scratch marks on the front of my converter.the one on the right,the little ribs were grinding

 

[v6turbo87]

Ok then I think you need to pull the pump open it up and see what's going on inside there. Sounds like it got damaged.

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[greeneyegi]

are their different pump housings?
i have never opened a tranny,other than shift kits and that kind of minor repairs,under the pan.
once the converter comes off,just remove the bolts on the pump housing and it just comes off?

 

[v6turbo87]

You need to take the pan off and pull the filter and the TCC solenoid. Both of those fit into bores inside of the pump. Once those are out you can take the bolts out that you see on the front of the tranny. The stator shaft is attached to the pump and will come out with it. You may have to very gently pry the pump out as there is an o ring around the outside of the pump. Once you get the pump out you will see more bolts on the back. You need to remove those to open up the pump and check the internals.

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[TexasT]

Just a little side note. The pump has a washer on the back of the stator. Looks like mickey mouse. You will need to stick this to the back of the pump with Vaseline when you put the pump back in. Also you will need two hose clamps to align the pump halves when you reassemble.
Post some pics of the pump internals , worth a thousand words.

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[Chuck Leeper]

"Welded and grinded"???????

 

[MeanBuicks]

You should be able to see catastrophic pump rotor failure without removing the pump. Pull the converter and look closely inside the oil seal. A good rotor will have two rectangular tangs aligned to mate with the converter hub slots. When the rotor breaks, you often only see one tang or both of them laying in there crooked.

 

[TexasT]

Might just have ring failure. But an inspection without removal is certainly warranted.

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[greeneyegi]

"Welded and grinded"???????

Yes, the pic shows the crack of the inside of the snout.the outside had been grinded smooth.I'll shoot more pics later.
This whole job started as a cam sensor time, and put the intercooler on.
Turned into a complete motor rebuild, now another tyranny.etc etc etc
I'm gonna pull tranny out after work today y I'll check back in
Thanks guys

 

[v6turbo87]

If the tranny is out I would pull that pump no matter what the inspection from the outside looks like. I'd also put a new hardened stator shaft on the pump when reassembled. The stator shaft splines wear in to the converter's splines. Cheap insurance in my mind.

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[pacecarta]

"Welded and grinded"???????

im with the old guy on this
dont even have words for this other that WTF were they thinking putting that in a trans and who thought it would work...that notch drives the pump
that converter should have been sent back and a new snout welded on

as for the converter rub when seated against trans thats the way those pro-torque 10.5 2800s are .. the fin ridges hit on the pump
from there i wouldnt pull out of trans more than 1/8" in and shim the difference at the flywheel

as for taking out a NL and going LU you need to convert the pump valve for lockup , if it was an art carr NL conversion you need to pull the pump, the gil young style (transgo 7ccv )style can be un done by dropping pan but youll need the original lockup valve components
the oring on the input shaft should not have been there for a nonlock converter so it may be it wasnt converted and is setup for LU

did this trans work before the converter was pulled ?
did you fill the converter with fluid and does it have enough fluid in the pan ?

 

[TexasT]

Yes, the pic shows the crack of the inside of the snout.the outside had been grinded smooth.I'll shoot more pics later.
This whole job started as a cam sensor time, and put the intercooler on.
Turned into a complete motor rebuild, now another tyranny.etc etc etc
I'm gonna pull tranny out after work today y I'll check back in
Thanks guys

Nothin easy with hot rods. Keep on it. It is worth it when it is drivable.

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[greeneyegi]

im with the old guy on this
dont even have words for this other that WTF were they thinking putting that in a trans and who thought it would work...that notch drives the pump
that converter should have been sent back and a new snout welded on

as for the converter rub when seated against trans thats the way those pro-torque 10.5 2800s are .. the fin ridges hit on the pump
from there i wouldnt pull out of trans more than 1/8" in and shim the difference at the flywheel

as for taking out a NL and going LU you need to convert the pump valve for lockup , if it was an art carr NL conversion you need to pull the pump, the gil young style (transgo 7ccv )style can be un done by dropping pan but youll need the original lockup valve components
the oring on the input shaft should not have been there for a nonlock converter so it may be it wasnt converted and is setup for LU

did this trans work before the converter was pulled ?
did you fill the converter with fluid and does it have enough fluid in the pan ?

long story shortened.
the previous owner rebuilt the lower end,and stopped about the point of setting the cam sensor and putting the intercooler on car.
i was hired to finish this job.
i set the cam sensor,completed the rest.
during the startup by new owner,no oil pressure....
after looking into it more,the oil pump had a spacer in it,but the stock pump gear.
this is when i knew it was all bad.
pulled the motor
the crank and bearings were burnt,the rod caps were replaced on the wrong rods,motor was binding up.
so i rebuilt motor,had heads rebuilt,did the earl timing cover,the whole 9 yards.
this is where im at now.
so nothing is going to surprise me.....is what i thought.
so here we r at the next step.
we dont know if the tranny was good or not.bout to find out.
i broke a promise i made long ago,dont start on something someone else started but didnt complete.

 

[v6turbo87]

With your experience you won't have any issues pulling the pump and opening it up. It is not hard to do.

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[bison]

long story shortened.
the previous owner rebuilt the lower end,and stopped about the point of setting the cam sensor and putting the intercooler on car.
i was hired to finish this job.
i set the cam sensor,completed the rest.
during the startup by new owner,no oil pressure....
after looking into it more,the oil pump had a spacer in it,but the stock pump gear.
this is when i knew it was all bad.
pulled the motor
the crank and bearings were burnt,the rod caps were replaced on the wrong rods,motor was binding up.
so i rebuilt motor,had heads rebuilt,did the earl timing cover,the whole 9 yards.
this is where im at now.
so nothing is going to surprise me.....is what i thought.
so here we r at the next step.
we dont know if the tranny was good or not.bout to find out.
i broke a promise i made long ago,dont start on something someone else started but didnt complete.

Holy crap. This guy is going to have one hell of a bill. That is a crap load of work and you're not even done yet.


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[Evaddave 87gn]

Nothin easy with hot rods. Keep on it. It is worth it when it is drivable.

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Isn't that the truth!!!

 

[greeneyegi]

i dropped the pan,and found that everything looked good except for 4 pieces of 2" long metal slivers in the pan.
i pulled trans and looked in the pump area,and the two tangs were chewed up.it took a pry bar to get the converter out.i could see a small scoring on the snout of the new converter.
so we shot it to a trans guy here in this area,known to know his stuff.
by looking at it he said the pump was shot ,and the trans had some upgraded parts already,
so by next weekend we should have it back,and give this another shot.thanks for the help.
i took some more shots of the cracked and welded converter snout,
ive seen it all now!