Cooling w/a Front Mount IC

[Vsix]

Ok guys who has some good cooling tips lets hear from guys in the HOT climate areas using a Front mount intercooler ...what really keeps your TR COOL post your cool combos please

I have a PTE front mount, 160 stat , stock factory fan,and a good stock radiator (cleaned and flushed) w/RMI added my temps are about 185-195 degrees without the A/C on

Thanks Jim

 

[Nick Micale]

If it is an original "good stock radiator", would say that is your main problem.

 

[equalizer442]

whats considered over heating in a tr? im in the 160 range (if im reading the right peramater on my scanmaster ) and im going to put a front mount on pretty soon but i dont have the money to go with a bigger radiator any time soon. is it ok to drive the car around in the 190 temp range?

 

[Two Lane]

Gene,

Who has the best price on the FlowKooler pumps?

Is the GSXtra ever going to publish your article on the cooling mods?

TIA!!

 

[Darth Fiero]

Sounds like the first thing I would look at is the stock cooling fan. While the stocker is a good unit -- one of the best single ones GM has ever put on a car, there is better stuff out there. You need to look no further than a 94-97 LT1 F-body dual fan setup. Do not be fooled by non-shrouded imitators, you need this ONE-PIECE, DUAL FAN setup. I would guess it moves about 1.5 times the air that the stock GN unit is capable of. Another thing to watch out for on the TR's; all stock chips and MOST aftermarket chips DISABLE cooling fan operation above 50mph and 50% throttle. While this may reduce HP loss by unloading the alternator, it is surely going to cost you power by letting the intercooler heat soak at speeds lower than 70MPH which would be about half a 1/4 mile pass. If you don't want to get a chip just to solve this problem, might I suggest you get some kind of a pressure switch to wire in with your fan relay(s) that will activate under boost. I find that a stock GM fuel pump oil pressure switch (normally open, closes at 7psi) works great for this. Just get some vacuum line reducers or go to the hardware store and build yourself an adapter that will allow you to put the pressure switch on a manifold vacuum/pressure source.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Darth Fiero
Sounds like the first thing I would look at is the stock cooling fan. While the stocker is a good unit -- one of the best single ones GM has ever put on a car, there is better stuff out there. You need to look no further than a 94-97 LT1 F-body dual fan setup. Do not be fooled by non-shrouded imitators, you need this ONE-PIECE, DUAL FAN setup. I would guess it moves about 1.5 times the air that the stock GN unit is capable of. Another thing to watch out for on the TR's; all stock chips and MOST aftermarket chips DISABLE cooling fan operation above 50mph and 50% throttle. While this may reduce HP loss by unloading the alternator, it is surely going to cost you power by letting the intercooler heat soak at speeds lower than 70MPH which would be about half a 1/4 mile pass. If you don't want to get a chip just to solve this problem, might I suggest you get some kind of a pressure switch to wire in with your fan relay(s) that will activate under boost. I find that a stock GM fuel pump oil pressure switch (normally open, closes at 7psi) works great for this. Just get some vacuum line reducers or go to the hardware store and build yourself an adapter that will allow you to put the pressure switch on a manifold vacuum/pressure source.

I'm not sure what "unshrowded imitators" you're refering to. Hopefully not the Ramcharger's dual fan setup. Because it's not in that class.

And you have me a little puzzled about how a front mount is going to get heat soaked, especially when the 50mph/50% throttle conditions are met(car's going fast now)????? And on top of that, Direct Scan test data shows that the only one of those two systems that actually works is the >50%tps. The fan does NOT turn off at a mph threshold. Even though it's shown in the chip. For some reason that feature is inoperative in acuality.

Vsix, you need to maybe look at a couple of things (without having to spend a bundle). First, either get your present radiator "rodded out" or better yet, have a new high efficiency core put in (three rows is MORE than enough). Fancy pumps and such really aren't required to keep a front mount car cooled.
The Ramcharger's dual fan setup, and wiring harness are very inexpensive (new) and will keep a "front mount" car cooled plenty well enough even in hot sticky weather (assuming the radiator is in good order, which most aren't).

 

[Darth Fiero]

Originally posted by TurboDave
I'm not sure what "unshrowded imitators" you're refering to. Hopefully not the Ramcharger's dual fan setup. Because it's not in that class.

And you have me a little puzzled about how a front mount is going to get heat soaked, especially when the 50mph/50% throttle conditions are met(car's going fast now)????? And on top of that, Direct Scan test data shows that the only one of those two systems that actually works is the >50%tps. The fan does NOT turn off at a mph threshold. Even though it's shown in the chip. For some reason that feature is inoperative in acuality.

dave, I am not referring to the ramchargers setup. I am refering to the earlier F-body dual fans that consisted of just the motor, bracket, and fan blade with no shroud that do not work worth a crap (i know, my GTA used to have them). I have not seen the ramchargers setup so I don't know how good it is compared to the LT1. Some say the new LS1 F-body dual fan setup is even better than the LT1 but I think the difference is minimal.

As far as heat soaking the front mount while the car is moving. I am glad you brought this up. As with any air-flow scenario, whenever you add a restriction in the path of air flow, you are going to decrease the amount of flow thru that restiction as a whole. Now the stock TR may not have a problem with cooling anyway, but once you add another radiator-like item in front of an A/C condensor and radiator, you are going to cut the air flow thru the unit as a whole by some percentage. Now I know you might be asking why does this matter because the IC is out front? It matters a lot. If you can't get the air out from behind the IC (ie thru the A/C cond. and coolant radiator) you are not going to get cool air to flow thru the front mount IC. Thus this brings me to my second point.

TR's, like most 80's GM cars with dual or 2-speed single fans work off of 2 fan relays. One high, and one low. The low speed relay (which typically comes on the earliest) is controlled by the ECM. In 99% of the stock and aftermarket TR chips that I have looked at, the low speed fan relay is commanded off above a certain throttle percentage and a certain speed. Now every car and chip is different so I don't doubt that you could have one that lets the fan run but I assure you the vast majority of those on the road disable low fan operation during these conditions of "hi load" environments. The high speed or secondary fan relay is controlled by a coolant temp switch located in the intake manifold. I have seen stock units that turn on at 215 degrees, 226, and maybe a few weird ones that come on at 190 or something like that. Even if you have an aftermarket switch in your intake, there is no guarantee that it will activate and stay active during full throttle excursions due to the increased coolant flow / capacity of the system under hi-rpm conditions. Hence the reason for a boost activated over-ride switch.

When we put a ford-FMIC on my friend's 87 T it was much better than stock by far. At the same time we added the aforementioned LT1 fan setup. He was running a stock hi-speed fan switch, a 160 stat, and a custom chip. To make a long story short the car felt really good sometimes and felt lazy some other times until I determined that perhaps the fans were not staying on. I went ahead and wired in that oil press switch I was talking about and wallah! Consistant engine power all the time. I have a friend who is in school studing to become and engineer and is nearing completion of his ford FMIC in his 87 GN and perhaps I will be able to talk him into borrowing some thermocouples from school and we will test my theory on paper to see if I am right.

All I know is this: If I am right and there is not as much air flow thru a FMIC, A/C cond, and radiator even with the car moving, the fans being on all the time under boost conditions should keep the FMIC as cold as possible and prevent it from heat loading / soaking. If I am wrong and there is more than enough air blowing thru all three of those sandwiched cooling fins, plus and aux trans coolers one might have, then all that air will keep the fans unloaded (because they won't have to pull anything) and you won't be eating up a lot of juice. I know it sounds like a longshot but I am anal about wanting to be sure about things. Besides, the 87 T did feel more consistant and even a smidge better with the boost activated fan switch.

 

[TurboDave]

My only real point was, that, (and I understand in inner workings of the chips) even though there is a commanded "fan off" parameter for "mph" it is non functional. Nobodies really been able to explain why that certain function doesn't operate, but it doesn't.

DS (direct scan) is a very functional tool in locating little "glitches" like this in chips, as you can see when the fan is being commanded by the fan and when it's not.

 

[JRGN]

Originally posted by Vsix
Ok guys who has some good cooling tips lets hear from guys in the HOT climate areas using a Front mount intercooler ...what really keeps your TR COOL post your cool combos please

I have a PTE front mount, 160 stat , stock factory fan,and a good stock radiator (cleaned and flushed) w/RMI added my temps are about 185-195 degrees without the A/C on

Thanks Jim

One of the first things I would do is give Nick Micale a call and talk to him about your radiator, I am running a JACK Cotton Fm and 160 stat with RMI also have the dual spal fan set up and the car temp runs at 160 to 168 in stop and go traffic on the hwy the temps are 162, also forgot I am using one of Nicks radiators. HTH Jr.

 

[Darth Fiero]

Originally posted by TurboDave
My only real point was, that, (and I understand in inner workings of the chips) even though there is a commanded "fan off" parameter for "mph" it is non functional. Nobodies really been able to explain why that certain function doesn't operate, but it doesn't.

DS (direct scan) is a very functional tool in locating little "glitches" like this in chips, as you can see when the fan is being commanded by the fan and when it's not.

I have never used direct scan but from what I have heard it is the best thing going for the TR's that still have the stock computer. I wonder, does it tell you that the ECM is still in closed loop while at WOT? Because technically, while in power enrich, the ECM ignores the O2 which is and OPEN LOOP characteristic but all of the scan tools I have used to date still say the ECM is in closed loop when truely it is not. See where I am coming from on this? I understand your point of veiw and I know that direct scan probably has a lot more in-depth coverage than any scan tool I could get my hands on. I just wanted to point out that the ECM may tell you it is doing one thing like having the fan request on, but my be disabling the output via another hidden parameter that you can't see in the scan data. The only way to be sure is to put a DVOM on the fan relay control wire leaving the ECM to ensure that it rermains grounded during the conditions we are talking about. In my friend's case, it was not even tho his fan request was on.

 

[BoostKillsStres]

Direct Scan shows closed loop at WOT but of course its not.

 

[turbot2112]

i was running hot with my eastern front mount. finnaly i put in one of nick mcales radiators and it helped a lot. but the biggest improvement had to be the ramchargers dual fan setup. the hottest the car gets now is 170 and then the fan kicks on and goes down to 158 in under 1 minute. i would do this and be done with it.

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by ILBCNU6
.......Come to the twin cities and bring any tester you want and I'll prove this to you or anyone! .... Gene

Twin cities???

Try testing here in one of our 110+ degree weeks. Seems like the core you are going to use is similar to the desert cooler core developed about 10 years ago that we sell?

 

[ijames]

Originally posted by BoostKillsStres
Direct Scan shows closed loop at WOT but of course its not.

What it shows is that the closed loop enable flag is set. This tells the ecm that the engine has met all of the run time, coolant temp, and o2 activity thresholds so that it is okay to actually go into closed loop whenever it's not in some other special mode such as pe, de, dfco, or ae. So the ecm can't go into closed loop mode if that flag is not set, but having it set does NOT mean that the ecm IS in closed loop mode. Same flag is sent in the aldl data stream so all scan tools there follow the same logic.

Dave, are you forgetting my old posts on the chunk of code that controls the fan (I think you had a post or two on that thread as well)? GM has a logic error and the mph test never gets done; it's in the rom so we can't fix it. I tried to copy it from the gnttype archives but that seems to be down right now, and if it was here it was before that big crash so it's gone.

That doesn't change Darth Fiero's (whoever that is) point, however, because the tps threshold will have the fan off anyway at wot. I guess I look at this as a street vs. race thing. Most of us have a switch wired in to the overtemp switch to run the fan in the staging lanes, and I leave that on for the whole pass to get maximum cooling as he suggests (and lots of race chips leave the fan on all the time, even wot, for the same reason). On the street, I'm not racing and don't want the fan to run all the time (sorry, Jay C.) in my street chips, especially in winter when I want some HEAT .

 

[Two Lane]

Originally posted by ILBCNU6


Two Lane and others, my plan was to test my system on the GSCA's Project Car.

My wife was diagnosed with what could of been a life threatening disease but it finally turned out to be a less serious disease so this stopped me from attending the 03 Nats.

I'll announce my results whenever all the details and tests have been completed.

Cooling is a big tuning tool along with flow distribution to even out combustion chamber temperatures. (boost related) Gene

Gene,

Really good to hear better news re: your wife's health. Hope all continues to go as well as possible for both of you and for your family.

Thanks for keeping us posted on your R & D on the cooling system.

Thanks for your help, Gene!

 

[tlturbo]

OK, I've been reading all the posts about fan turn on and off and high and low speed and I have a question.
I have a front mount and live in Ft Lauderdale and need some more cooling. I am planning on ordering the Ramcharger dual fans BUT you can get it without a wiring harness or with a custom one with all plugs. The price difference is about $ 40 I think.

Living in FL, wouldn't it make sense to wire it yourself simply to run on high speed all the time? Why spend the extra to get the wiring?

What is everyone else getting - with or without the wiring harness?

Opinions? I have a new Joe Leubrant (sp?) chip and I don't know what he does with the fans.

Thanks - Terry

 

[ijames]

Originally posted by tlturbo
OK, I've been reading all the posts about fan turn on and off and high and low speed and I have a question.
I have a front mount and live in Ft Lauderdale and need some more cooling. I am planning on ordering the Ramcharger dual fans BUT you can get it without a wiring harness or with a custom one with all plugs. The price difference is about $ 40 I think.

Living in FL, wouldn't it make sense to wire it yourself simply to run on high speed all the time? Why spend the extra to get the wiring?

What is everyone else getting - with or without the wiring harness?

Opinions? I have a new Joe Leubrant (sp?) chip and I don't know what he does with the fans.

Thanks - Terry

The Ramchargers adapter plug ($29, I think) does run the fans on high whenever they run. See my posting in another ramcharger fan thread about how to rewire the plug for better (I think so, anyway ) operation, but always still on high speed. The adapter plug is worth it to me, to keep from having to cut and splice on the GM harness.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by BoostKillsStres
Direct Scan shows closed loop at WOT but of course its not.

But if you notice under the BLM grid it shows "Learn"

*edit: sorry, its in the right bunch of indicators, just looked*

 

[Way2QWK]

It dont get much hotter than here in Tucson, except Phoenix. I have been pleased with the cooling system in my car so far. Its nearly a new stock system with just dual fans.
In 100'F summers in city driving mine stays around 190-200'F. In the winter it stays around 155-165'F

Everything on the motor is new
stock waterpump
stock radiator recored
Ramchargers fans
stock baffling and shrouds
fan hotwired to high speed
RMI-25

 

[Vsix]

Lots of good information guys looks like Nick Micales radiator and Ramchargers dual fan kit are the way to go

Thanks Jim