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Correcting Front Suspension

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blacksix

Member
Joined
May 15, 2002
Messages
184
So after driving the Z28 for a year I really enjoyed the handling, and now that it's sold I'd like to upgrade the T-Type so it drives better. I've got Bilsteins and Eibach springs to install, tubular rear control arms, and now it's time to address the front end.

I'm planning the 12" brake/tall spindle swap, and have been reading about the bumpsteer and camber issues that can arise. The Global West site ( Century, Regal, Grand National Front Control Arms 1978, 1979,1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988 ) says their Negative Roll system corrects a lot of the issues found in the G-body front end, and the SC&C site ( SC&C Street-Comp AFX GM G-body `78-`88 adjustable arms w/greaseable racing bushings | Savitske Classic & Custom ) says their AFX spindle/adjustable A-Arm is the be-all and end-all.

SC&C package is twice the price. Does anyone have experience with both? I also see a lot of upper control arms at $400 vs $540 for Global West. Does anyone else offer control arms that correct the geometry as the GW arms do?

Is there anything else that can be done to help the whole package? I've seen steering arms that are supposed to correct the bumpsteer issues, any experience with those?
 
I have installed GM B-Body spindles with Hotchkis tubular upper control arms & sway bar on front along with HRParts Insane rear suspension (includes upper and lower control arms and sway bar) on rear and love it. It is a great street car but it is not an autocross car.

The SCC setup uses, I believe, a custom tall spindle, Corvette bearing/hub, custom upper/lower control arms, etc which is way better. It all depends on what you want and can afford.

The B-car spindle comes with 12" rotor (if use 1LE rotor, you won't have to drill the rotors for correct bolt circle) so that is an excellent upgrade in itself.

If you want to be competitive at national autocross events, you should look for a different car such as 1st or 2nd gen GM F-body as there is a wealth of suspension parts for these cars.

If you want to be top dog at our Bowling Green autocross, you will probably need a hardtop car (no t-tops...weigh too much and seriously reduce stiffness of the overall car), put car (and yourself?) on a serious diet, buy/build top notch front and rear suspension (SCC, Global West, Detroit Speed, HR Parts, etc) for front and rear, will need to box middle portion of frame for stiffness, will need max-point roll cage to further stiffen the chassis, will need TA aluminum block to reduce weight and gain better weight distribution, aluminum heads (weight/power), design engine (turbo / intercooler / cam / heads / headers / PCM / etc) for max power with INSTANT throttle response, WIDE/LIGHTWEIGHT wheels on all 4 corners, super sticky tires, BIG (Baer, Wilwood, etc) brakes, racing seats & belts, run E85 (eliminate heavy intercooler at the front of the car), ....well, you get the idea. Serious $'s and YOU will need to attend several driver's schools to make yourself competitive!
Conrad
 
I went with global west uppers and f-body spindles. Im using stock lowers with delalum bushings. my problem is I put Eiback springs all the way around not knowing the spindles drop it an inch.My car is going through a frame off right now so I will have to wait to see how it sits and handles.
 
We would all be smart to just sell our TR and buy a used Corvette ZR1 or ZO6! Of course, there would be those pesky insurance payments and property taxes!
Conrad
 
So after driving the Z28 for a year I really enjoyed the handling, and now that it's sold I'd like to upgrade the T-Type so it drives better. I've got Bilsteins and Eibach springs to install, tubular rear control arms, and now it's time to address the front end.

I'm planning the 12" brake/tall spindle swap, and have been reading about the bumpsteer and camber issues that can arise. The Global West site ( Century, Regal, Grand National Front Control Arms 1978, 1979,1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988 ) says their Negative Roll system corrects a lot of the issues found in the G-body front end, and the SC&C site ( SC&C Street-Comp AFX GM G-body `78-`88 adjustable arms w/greaseable racing bushings | Savitske Classic & Custom ) says their AFX spindle/adjustable A-Arm is the be-all and end-all.

SC&C package is twice the price. Does anyone have experience with both? I also see a lot of upper control arms at $400 vs $540 for Global West. Does anyone else offer control arms that correct the geometry as the GW arms do?

Is there anything else that can be done to help the whole package? I've seen steering arms that are supposed to correct the bumpsteer issues, any experience with those?

If you can afford SC&C's AFX package, get it and be done. There is no better setup for these cars at any price. With that, a Fayes Watts link in the back, and good tires, you'll have a car whose capability far exceeds your talent.

If you want to do it cheap without the bumpsteer problems of a B-body spindle, get taller ball joints from Howe Racing. It's all about increasing the effective spindle height to raise the car's front roll center and improve the camber gain when the suspension compresses.
 
True, but brake options are limited with the stock spindles. Since 2wd Blazers barely exist in Canada I'd have to cobble up a set from Ebay or something, and are there upgraded rotors and pads available for that swap? What decent brake options are there for stock spindles?
 
True, but brake options are limited with the stock spindles. What decent brake options are there for stock spindles?
BAER brake sells an awesome bolt-on kit for these cars already pre-assyembled on regular OEM spindles. I personally have these on our test car and done a complete build thread for the members where Everything was covered. Here is a link to the install thread..... http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspensions-tires-wheels/343546-baer-brake-install.html Note: the video at the end of the thread, it's the most recent video of our car in the BAER brake "Speed/Stop Challenge"...

I have a Monte Carlo SS Vacuum set up that only cost a total of $169.00 http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/br...els/257353-vacuum-brake-conversion-costs.html..
 
BAER brake sells an awesome bolt-on kit for these cars already pre-assyembled on regular OEM spindles. I personally have these on our test car and done a complete build thread for the members where Everything was covered. Here is a link to the install thread..... http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspensions-tires-wheels/343546-baer-brake-install.html Note: the video at the end of the thread, it's the most recent video of our car in the BAER brake "Speed/Stop Challenge"...

I have a Monte Carlo SS Vacuum set up that only cost a total of $169.00 http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/br...els/257353-vacuum-brake-conversion-costs.html..

Seems the best bet with tall upper balljoints and proper control arms. Already have vac brakes, never looked back. Hm.
 
I'm planning the 12" brake/tall spindle swap, and have been reading about the bumpsteer and camber issues that can arise. The Global West site ( Century, Regal, Grand National Front Control Arms 1978, 1979,1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988 ) says their Negative Roll system corrects a lot of the issues found in the G-body front end, and the SC&C site ( SC&C Street-Comp AFX GM G-body `78-`88 adjustable arms w/greaseable racing bushings | Savitske Classic & Custom ) says their AFX spindle/adjustable A-Arm is the be-all and end-all.

SC&C package is twice the price. Does anyone have experience with both? I also see a lot of upper control arms at $400 vs $540 for Global West. Does anyone else offer control arms that correct the geometry as the GW arms do?

Is there anything else that can be done to help the whole package? I've seen steering arms that are supposed to correct the bumpsteer issues, any experience with those?

Let's dispell some myths here.:biggrin:

Bump steer can never be eliminated completely because the suspension can never be left at a static position. It can be lessoned to reduce it's effects but it's impossible to remove it completely. You will need to decide on what suspension parts you are going to use before try to reduce the bump steer. You can't just buy parts, even if they're part of a kit and expect them to solve a problem that will always be there.

As far as changing spindles, after what I just stated above the same thing goes. AFX spindles do help on handling, but it's mostly because of reduced unsprung weight. Not because of the design. You can't fix a problem that has to do with the height of the tire and wheel with a fixed part. The camber will change in relation to the height and width of the tire/ wheel combo. You need to figure out which tire and wheel you plan to use first so that you can figure where the camber curve is before deciding on how to fix it.

The camber of the tire in a curve changes as the height of the tire changes. The tire needs to stay as flat as possible to the surface of the road to get the best results. To figure out where the changes need to be done you need to figure out which tires and wheels you're planning on going with and how different they are to the original 14" tire the chasis was designed for.

If you decide to go with the B body spindles you also don't need the $500 dollar arms. UMI can make the arms for you for about $130 each or so. You need to contact them first to see what they can offer you. They've done them before so they should have a jig already made up. YOu can also use the stock upper if you want to. All you'll need to do is change the shaft out for one of the MOOG problem solver shafts and then get it aligned. A lot cheaper than buying custom arms after all.:)
 
Tires and wheels are a given. Street: Simmons 17x9 with 235/45R17 front, 255/45R17 rear (maybe 275/40R17 once these wear out). Autocross: GTA rims with 265/45R16's all around.

So, big, but not as big as some guys are running. I feel the cars look best on 17's. 315's or so out back would be cool but I'm not into that kind of surgery. Since the turbo V6 will never stand up to roadracing like the 1LE Camaro did, autocross will be as far as it goes for this combo. Currently the car tramlines badly as it is and I didn't want to induce bumpsteer on top of that.

Springs and shocks are now in - - looks perfect. Could drop another 1/2" or so in front if needed to accomodate suspension fixes.
 
What exactly has been done to the car now? That would be the best place to start. It gives more of a base line after all.
 
Let's dispell some myths here.:biggrin:

Bump steer can never be eliminated completely because the suspension can never be left at a static position. It can be lessoned to reduce it's effects but it's impossible to remove it completely. You will need to decide on what suspension parts you are going to use before try to reduce the bump steer. You can't just buy parts, even if they're part of a kit and expect them to solve a problem that will always be there.

You're right, bumpsteer can never be eliminated, but why make it worse if you don't have to?

As far as changing spindles, after what I just stated above the same thing goes. AFX spindles do help on handling, but it's mostly because of reduced unsprung weight. Not because of the design. You can't fix a problem that has to do with the height of the tire and wheel with a fixed part. The camber will change in relation to the height and width of the tire/ wheel combo. You need to figure out which tire and wheel you plan to use first so that you can figure where the camber curve is before deciding on how to fix it.

This is not correct. The main problem with the stock suspension design is it places the roll center of the front end under ground. The roll center is the point in space around which the mass of the car pivots when rolling, as in a turn. The further away from the car's center of gravity the roll center is, the more body movement you get in roll. This causes the mass to move further, much like the difference between a pendulum with a short and vs. a long arm.

The camber curve is a function of control arm length and initial ride height, but it isn't the main benefit. Using a taller spindle like the AFX, B-Body, or taller ball joints with the stock spindle moves the roll center. In the case of tall upper ball joints, it pulls it up from about 6" below ground to about 1" above. The AFX setup is even taller and literally pulls the front roll center up to the center of the crossmember right below the engine.

To demonstrate the effect, go pick up a 25lb dumbell. Hold it in your hand straight out in front of you, and try to wave it around. Then pull it up against your chest and move it the same way. One way is much easier than the other.

The effect on the car is dramatic. The car responds much quicker to inputs and doesn't work the tires as hard because you aren't wasting energy trying to roll the car all over the place when you change direction. Steering feel and responsiveness improves. It also lets you get away with a smaller swaybar and allows mounting of C5 and even C6 brake rotors and calipers. Your front tires will actually run cooler and last longer when driving like a maniac because you aren't working them as hard.


The camber of the tire in a curve changes as the height of the tire changes. The tire needs to stay as flat as possible to the surface of the road to get the best results. To figure out where the changes need to be done you need to figure out which tires and wheels you're planning on going with and how different they are to the original 14" tire the chasis was designed for.

Again, the camber curve is a function of control arm length and ride height (as in, where the spindle is in relation to the car at rest, not necessarily the ground). What size wheel and tire you put on it doesn't matter much. Tire diameter WILL alter toe.

If you decide to go with the B body spindles you also don't need the $500 dollar arms. UMI can make the arms for you for about $130 each or so. You need to contact them first to see what they can offer you. They've done them before so they should have a jig already made up. YOu can also use the stock upper if you want to. All you'll need to do is change the shaft out for one of the MOOG problem solver shafts and then get it aligned. A lot cheaper than buying custom arms after all.:)

I don't think the B-body spindles are a good move anymore. They had their day, but they introduce a lot of bumpsteer, really hurt the cars turning radius, and eff up the ackerman which will cause goofy tire scrubbing in tight turn situations.

As for the OP's question about brakes for stock spindles, you can buy factory new Blazer spindle/hub assemblies and get those 11" brakes, or you can have a machine shop lathe the rotor off a set of stock rotor/hub assemblies, cut off the stock caliper mount ears and make a mount bracket for the Blazer calipers out of plate steel.

Another option is the Wilwood HD front brake setup for our cars. It's still a 10.75" rotor, but it's a much thicker rotor with an aluminium hub and four piston calipers. It's a huge step up from stock and still fits behind the stock wheels. Baer also has a large rotor front setup, but it's twice the price of the Wilwood kit.
 
Tires and wheels are a given. Street: Simmons 17x9 with 235/45R17 front, 255/45R17 rear (maybe 275/40R17 once these wear out). Autocross: GTA rims with 265/45R16's all around.

So, big, but not as big as some guys are running. I feel the cars look best on 17's. 315's or so out back would be cool but I'm not into that kind of surgery. Since the turbo V6 will never stand up to roadracing like the 1LE Camaro did, autocross will be as far as it goes for this combo. Currently the car tramlines badly as it is and I didn't want to induce bumpsteer on top of that.

Springs and shocks are now in - - looks perfect. Could drop another 1/2" or so in front if needed to accomodate suspension fixes.

265/45R16s will very likely rub the front inner fenderwells, especially if you're lowered, and definitely if you dial in a lot of positive caster. I had issues in parking lots with 245/50R16s. Just look it over really well on when you get them mounted. There may be some fender rolling in your future.
 
What exactly has been done to the car now? That would be the best place to start. It gives more of a base line after all.

Eibachs, Bilsteins, tubular rear lowers, good condition stock front end, stock front swaybar w/ poly bushings, going to try the 2wd Blazer swaybar on the rear.
 
You're right, bumpsteer can never be eliminated, but why make it worse if you don't have to?

This is not correct. The main problem with the stock suspension design is it places the roll center of the front end under ground. The roll center is the point in space around which the mass of the car pivots when rolling, as in a turn. The further away from the car's center of gravity the roll center is, the more body movement you get in roll. This causes the mass to move further, much like the difference between a pendulum with a short and vs. a long arm.

The camber curve is a function of control arm length and initial ride height, but it isn't the main benefit. Using a taller spindle like the AFX, B-Body, or taller ball joints with the stock spindle moves the roll center. In the case of tall upper ball joints, it pulls it up from about 6" below ground to about 1" above. The AFX setup is even taller and literally pulls the front roll center up to the center of the crossmember right below the engine.

To demonstrate the effect, go pick up a 25lb dumbell. Hold it in your hand straight out in front of you, and try to wave it around. Then pull it up against your chest and move it the same way. One way is much easier than the other.

The effect on the car is dramatic. The car responds much quicker to inputs and doesn't work the tires as hard because you aren't wasting energy trying to roll the car all over the place when you change direction. Steering feel and responsiveness improves. It also lets you get away with a smaller swaybar and allows mounting of C5 and even C6 brake rotors and calipers. Your front tires will actually run cooler and last longer when driving like a maniac because you aren't working them as hard.

Again, the camber curve is a function of control arm length and ride height (as in, where the spindle is in relation to the car at rest, not necessarily the ground). What size wheel and tire you put on it doesn't matter much. Tire diameter WILL alter toe.

I don't think the B-body spindles are a good move anymore. They had their day, but they introduce a lot of bumpsteer, really hurt the cars turning radius, and eff up the ackerman which will cause goofy tire scrubbing in tight turn situations.

As for the OP's question about brakes for stock spindles, you can buy factory new Blazer spindle/hub assemblies and get those 11" brakes, or you can have a machine shop lathe the rotor off a set of stock rotor/hub assemblies, cut off the stock caliper mount ears and make a mount bracket for the Blazer calipers out of plate steel.

Another option is the Wilwood HD front brake setup for our cars. It's still a 10.75" rotor, but it's a much thicker rotor with an aluminium hub and four piston calipers. It's a huge step up from stock and still fits behind the stock wheels. Baer also has a large rotor front setup, but it's twice the price of the Wilwood kit.

I was going to give a really long explanation but to be honest it's will more benificial to post info so that other can do the math themselves rather than rely on someon else to figure it out for them. Here are a few links that I think members might find interesting and I'm also posting the calculation for figuring bumpsteer and camber change. This may be overly complicated for some but it will provide the best explanation for someone that is willing to do the work.:)

Ackermann steering geometry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bump steer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Camber Change - Static & Dynamic - Tire Traction - Tech - Circle Track

OptimumK Help

This one may confuse you some but it's a lot more of an advanced engineering board and I doubt that many here would be members. :) I am however. LOL

Automotive suspension engineering - ISO8855 toe and camber angle definition into rotation matrix form

Automotive suspension engineering - Yaw damping

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Vehicle Dynamics, SLA Suspension camber change and bump steer example 5/11/09


Determining Camber angle and bump steer
Setup all the suspension points in space, with origin at upper pivot. P2=(0,0)
Determine coordinates of remainder of points as
a. P0=(-1,-9)
b. P1=endpoint of lower A-arm, (10,-9)
c. P3=Endpoint upper A-arm, to be calculated, (10,1)
d. P4=Origin of tierod, (-0.5,-4)
e. P5 = Endpoint of tierod, (10,-4)

Calculate R1=|P3-P1| and R1 = |P3-P2|
Set up equations for C,D,E,X3,Y3
Calculate X3,Y3 for initial positions and determine signs
Increment q for +- 10 degrees and calculate P3
Calculate camber change, body roll, and net camber change
Setup Chase 2C using P1 and P4 to determine P5
Calculate P5 optimal from P1 & R15 using spindle angle calculated above
Bump steer is determined by the difference between optimal and actual P5 DIVIDED by the ratio of tie-rod-arm length to wheel radius

Show that





DWF +DWR = DW = Zcg/t*Fy in all cases.
Define each of the terms in the above equation and discuss the limiting cases for each, .i.e. when do terms collapse and what do they mean?

Derive the relationship w = 188/x ½

Calculation of roll Gradient
Swaybar: 24.8mm F, 23.5mm R, Calculate roll rate example
 
Oh, NOW I see . . .:eek:

Maybe by next weekend I'll have a chance to read and understand all that. Meanwhile, better to go with the taller spindle, or optimize with the factory one?
 
Oh, NOW I see . . .:eek:

Maybe by next weekend I'll have a chance to read and understand all that. Meanwhile, better to go with the taller spindle, or optimize with the factory one?

LOL Sorry about that.:) There just a point where you have to make a very serious point.:biggrin:

Technically a taller spindle will give you a better camber curve but the options for the spindle aren't that big so far. You really come out better going with a stock spindle or the Blazer spindle if you want to keep 15" wheels on the car. If you want to go with a 16" or bigger wheel then you can do the Baer brakes or a B body spindle, but the B body spindle isn't designed for our cars so there's some other issues there. The AFX spindles are designed for a G body but don't do all that's claimed of them so it's really not worth the money at all.:)
 
What size is the rear blazer bar? Has anyone tried the 92+ crown vic bar? The crown vic bar is supposed to be a bolt with fbody clamps, it's 28mm
 
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