Cutting Out - Newbie help needed

[70-71-72]

I have an '87 Turbo that I've owned since April 15th. I drove it 1,000 miles back home and I've tinkered with it. That is my total experience with these cars. I've been trying to figure this out myself using these forums but I've got too many variables and I don't want to go replacing parts.

Here's the scenario. My car runs fairly well while it is still cold. I don't want to really test it while it is warming up because I've got enough problems already. Once it is fully warm and under WOT I get a cutting-out reaction. I do have a Turbo-Link now and I think I know why it is doing that. The speed on the Turbo-Link shows that it jumps from ~20mph to ~170mph and then back to ~30 and so on. I think it is "cutting out" because the computer is telling it to shutdown based on the governer. I did check the TPS and it is correct (.8 to 4.8 at WOT, if I remember the numbers right).

It has been having a problem lately of draining the battery too. I don't know if that is related. It also seems to run the radiator fan for WAY too long. It will run even if I just turn on the ignition and not even start the car. This varies though.

When I drove it back home it ran pretty good but that was just highway and I didn't want to press my luck by running it hard. I got about 22 mpg which seemed a little low but I was averaging 80+. The previous owner claimed to have replaced the plug wires and the vacuum hoses (presumably to fix this same problem that He didn't tell me about ) and those appear to be fine. Not totally sure about all of the vacuum hoses but would it run fine for 1,000 miles if they weren't? I had to adjust my TV cable and I still question my TCC, but that may be me just being paranoid from all I've read on these forums. Can I verify that info from my Turbo-Link v2.13?

Anyway, that's my story. From what I know the car is bone stock. I have all kinds of ideas but I don't want to just replace parts. I need to figure out a way to test what I already have on the car. My best tool is the Turbo-Link. I have a multimeter but I'm not sure what to test. If you have any suggestions, please try to keep them basic. I'm still just learning.....

Thanks,

Brad

 

[Terry_H]

Does bone stock mean the original fuel pump?

 

[70-71-72]

Does bone stock mean the original fuel pump?

Yep. I already have the new pump and hot wire kit but I want to see if I can fix the problem first. I figure it isn't the pump since it only happens when it is warmed up and the Turbo-Link is showing the jump in MPH. I have given a WOT punch while it isn't warmed up and it reacts much better (No noticable miss). Not something I want to make a habit of so I haven't done it since.

 

[Terry_H]

Install the new pump and harness. Your car is running like crap. Why wait? The factory pump was marginal when it was new. How well do you think it's working now, 20 years later? Change the fuel filter too.

Get a fuel pressure guage clamped on the windsheild and check pressure under high boost. One pound of pressure per pound of boost over static pressure.

If this doesn't fix your problem, no sweat, it needs to be done regardless.

 

[buickpower]

Not sure if that was a typo, but the idle TPS setting should be .42-.46 or so, not .8, just checking. Make sure all grounds are good and clean, especially the ones on the back of the head. Also check your plugs for proper gap just for kicks.

Also, does the engine seem to be overheating? And do you mean the fan continues to run after shutting off?

 

[70-71-72]

Not sure if that was a typo, but the idle TPS setting should be .42-.46 or so, not .8, just checking. Make sure all grounds are good and clean, especially the ones on the back of the head. Also check your plugs for proper gap just for kicks.

Also, does the engine seem to be overheating? And do you mean the fan continues to run after shutting off?

I wasn't as concerned about the idle setting but I remember it was close to what it should have been. I was pulling the .8 off the top of my head. I'll check it again but I'm pretty sure it was close to what gnttype said it should be. The car does seems to idle fast (1000-1100 according to the stock tach) and I haven't adjusted that yet, so that may be where the difference is.

Of course it's dummy lights but the engine doesn't seem to be overheating. I know these run a little hot anyway so it's kinda hard for me to tell but like I said, long trip - no problems. I'll have to check my Turbo-Link. Does it give coolant temp?

The fan thing may not be an issue but it seems extreme. The electric fan on the engine side of the radiator runs after the engine is turned off. It may run for 10 minutes. It also runs for a long time if I just move the car or even turn on the ignition without turning the engine over but *probably* not as long. I figured it was on a timer and imtermingled with temperature conditions. If any of this seems extreme then maybe I need to get some more info on how long it really runs and under what conditions. I thought this may have to do with my battery draining, like maybe it runs when I'm not there. Maybe I bought Christine II?......

 

[Terry_H]

The linear stock tach is a joke. Don't rely on it for anything except the pretty colors. They are easily off 50% or more.

 

[70-71-72]

The linear stock tach is a joke. Don't rely on it for anything except the pretty colors. They are easily off 50% or more.

They are pretty, aren't they? I guess I've got the tach on my Turbo-Link.

 

[chris j. 87gn]

the fan and battery drain...on the drivers side fender there are three relays, the one to the rear of the car also the biggest, unplug it. it is the delay relay that runs the fan after the car is off and usually doesn't kick in till 210* or higher(somewhere in there). unplug and see if your fan still does what you describe... these go bad and have been known to kill the battery, like you said, when your not there! if you want the pretty colors to be accurate again get ahold of caspers electronics, they recalibrate yours or take yours as a core and send you a re-cal.-ed unit. idle is set by the chip, no adj.. TPS setting is important as buickpower pointed out. got that pump and hotwire in yet? if not get/borrow a fuel press. gauge and see whats going on when you have this problem and like terry h. said, i'd put the pump in , your going to need it, better to do it when your ready and not when the pump tells you it's ready! ...i don't know anything about turbo link but if you can post whatever it is telling you like the TPS,IAC,A/F,any of that stuff, so we can see what else is going on. HTH's & just my o2!

 

[70-71-72]

Remanufactured ECM or Aftermarket replacement?

the fan and battery drain...on the drivers side fender there are three relays, the one to the rear of the car also the biggest, unplug it. it is the delay relay that runs the fan after the car is off and usually doesn't kick in till 210* or higher(somewhere in there). unplug and see if your fan still does what you describe... these go bad and have been known to kill the battery, like you said, when your not there!

I had time to work on this today. You were exactly right. As a matter of fact, after I played with it and then left to return to work after lunch, I came back after work and the battery was dead. I guess if I turn it on and not warm it up and then let the fan run it will drain the battery. I went to get the relay but they gave me the high/low relay and not the delay relay. I'll get it and that should fix the battery problem.

I had a little time to work on the "miss" too and I'm almost sure it is the ECM. Turbo-Link readings were all over the place even when the car was just idling. I unplugged the ECM, plugged it back in and it seemed to act better for a couple of minutes and then it started freaking out again.

Is there any reason to buy an aftermarket ECM instead of a stock remanufactured unit? Any chance it is just the chip and not the ECM?

I haven't even had a chance to really enjoy this car yet.......

 

[Haynesie]

id be happy with 22 mpg on the highway, im getting 16...try testing your computer, and see if any codes are being thrown...my car will throw a code but the ses light will not come on due to previous mods by the owner, aslo varify that the O2 sensor is good, mine was causing the car to cut out when it got fouled up

 

[chris j. 87gn]

you know i totaly answered these ass backwards, my bad... but i will try to make up for it.. again i am sorry for confusing you guys!
the fan delay relay.... alot of guys/gals just unplug it and forget it, you can to if you want,(you also can, since they come unsealed, buy them and then smear a like coat of silicon around the base to seal make up for that!) at least to see if it is the culprit of your battery drain! happened to me and alot of others so i would think so! don't remeber where you are but you can still get them alot cheaper if your local parts store guy will work with you to find the right one rather than getting some 60.00 dollar part, i did($15.00)! if i had any sense i would buy them all and do like these vendors i've seen and sell them for 63.00!(B.S.) and like i said i messed up and thru some stuff at jazzmaster , see that post to see what is going on! sorry about that!i'm going to get another beer!

 

[chris j. 87gn]

and 70-71-72, i appologize for this but you have a look at jazzmasters post!!!
you guys have something similiar going on and i screwed up! sorry i admit it!

 

[70-71-72]

the fan delay relay.... alot of guys/gals just unplug it and forget it, you can to if you want,(you also can, since they come unsealed, buy them and then smear a like coat of silicon around the base to seal make up for that!) at least to see if it is the culprit of your battery drain! happened to me and alot of others so i would think so! don't remeber where you are but you can still get them alot cheaper if your local parts store guy will work with you to find the right one rather than getting some 60.00 dollar part, i did($15.00)! if i had any sense i would buy them all and do like these vendors i've seen and sell them for 63.00!(B.S.)

I went to O'reilly auto parts and they wanted to see the old delay relay. Couldn't find it in the book and they thought they could figure it out by checking continuity on it (even though it is probably bad!). I went to NAPA next and of course their version is the $60 one. I'll keep looking but I'm worried that I may have to get the full price one. For Now I'm plugging and unplugging it myself. Long trip=plugged in; move in driveway=keep unplugged.

 

[70-71-72]

Install the new pump and harness. Your car is running like crap. Why wait? The factory pump was marginal when it was new. How well do you think it's working now, 20 years later? Change the fuel filter too.

Get a fuel pressure guage clamped on the windsheild and check pressure under high boost. One pound of pressure per pound of boost over static pressure.

I checked the plugs like turbobuick suggested and they are the ACDelco 44's and they look like they've been running hot so I will replace those with the 43's soon. I might do the wires too but I don't think either of these are the problem.

Put a fuel pressure guage on it. It read 34lbs at idle and 40 when I pulled off the vacuum from the regulator (my mechanic's suggestion). Shouldn't it read higher with the vacuum off? Smoothed out the idle from what we could hear. So we replaced the fuel filter. The old filter couldn't be blown though at all! Don't know how it was even working. He thought it was running better afterward but we never warmed it up completely. Still doing the same thing the next day. I ran it out of gas so I'm ready to drop the tank and put in the new pump. Not sure that will help either but like you said, why not do it.

Now I've got new question, though. He had a tool to check the computer and system. His seemed to show everything fine! Is there anyone who has ever heard of a Turbo-Link giving false readings? Could the cable be bad? Is the power pack add-on for the Turbo-Link cable for my Toshiba laptop causing problems? Is it because the Turbo-Link is more in tune with my setup and his setup couldn't get the same readings?

 

[John Larkin]

Not sure about the Turbolink & Toshiba relationship. Email Turbolink and ask. He may know. As for the delay relay, you don't need it at ALL. I haven't used mine in years and things are fine. Just leave it unplugged permanently. Spend the $60 on something else.

 

[chris j. 87gn]

Mr. Larkin is right just undo it and leave it go, it won't hurt anything and your car shouldn't get hot enough to kick it in, if it does you may have other cooling problems to worry about. however if you are like me and just like everything in it's place, try this part number...acdelco 15-8229. i also dug the reciept out to see what i paid, and my bad, it wasn't 15.00, it was 22.00, but still better than 60.00!if you do get one, smear some silicone around the bottom of the unit(around the edges,you'll see what/where we mean), they are not sealed from the factory and this is what kills them.
most have fuel press. set at 42psi, static(line off and blocked), but this is usually dictated by the chip maker. i would set to that till you know what chip you have and what they want, even though your not way way off! let us know when the pump is in and how it all went!
good luck.
oh yea and again like Mr. Larkin said ask turbo link they'll help you and if you get bored some time... check all the grounds

 

[70-71-72]

latest update

I didn't get a chance to drop the tank yet and had to put gas in it to get it to a Turbo Buick meeting (Well worth it) so I don't have the fuel pump upgraded yet. I got a few suggestions at the meet, though. I was told to check the battery cables which were seriously close to the exhaust. The positive was good but the ground to the block might not be a bad idea to replace. I can see wire through the insulation. It was clear of the exhaust and I pushed it away more but maybe when it torques up it touches.

I got a new coil and put it in. It really seemed to have fixed most of my miss problems but doesn't seem to have as much giddy-up now. Not a lot less, just less. I also checked my turbo link again and it is fine with the engine cold but still freaks once it is warm. I guess I'm gonna try a verified good ECM next and see what comes of that.

My question is now, do I need to be concerned with the Electronic Spark Control (ESC) module? Could that have "killed" my coil and will it do it again? Does that make sense with the car still throwing codes and giving crazy turbolink reading when it gets heated up? I guess to me it makes more sense than an ECM which shouldn't be effected by engine compartment temperatures. Maybe the ECM just gets heated up from normal electronic temperature increases.

I got into the mode I didn't want to get in, replace parts and see if that fixes it. There are plenty of places that I could have taken it to that would have done that for me.....

 

[70-71-72]

It's been quite a while since I posted on this issue but I wanted to close the book on the subject. I did finally get a used ECM for it, used my old chip and fired it up. That made most all the difference in the world. It still runs a little rough for what I think it should but the power is there! No more issues of getting heated up and then missing out.

Knowing a little of the history of my car, I figure having it sit outside under a pine tree for several years in NC (a whole other story with paint and glass issues) corroded many of the connections including the ones inside the car. When I change all of the spring cleaning items this spring I'll see if that fixes the rough running. I figure I may need a new chip too if the ECM was corroded.

I did replace the fuel pump finally and that really didn't seem to make a noticable difference to me. Maybe once I start tweaking the performance I'll notice some nice increases where I wouldn't have with the old setup.

I can't wait for spring to get her back out but she's all put up for the winter. In the mean time, thanks for everyones help and have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

 

[bison]

Clean the MAF out and make sure their is no carbon buildup on it. Also check the hose between the turbo and MAF. Replace the PCV with a new one from gm or install a positve check valve which is available from the vendors. Do a compression test also.