differences in 252 block Vs 231 block

[MY85pontiac]

are the 252 CID blocks different from the 231's or are they just bored out a little larger?

i'm asking because i'm considering building a N/A engine and if the extra cubes help then great, i want to go with a 252 instead but if i can just bore out a 231 then i wont worry about trying to find a 252 block.

i'll probably ask more questions after this but for now this one will get the ball rolling.

 

[charlief1]

Yes they're different and no, you can't just bore a 231 out to 252 size.

 

[forzfed]

There are minor differences, same stroke different bore, 14 bolt pan compared to the 86/87 20 bolt oil pan. You can't bore a 3.8 to a 4.1, even stroked you won't be there. Here's a decent little write up on one. TurboBuicks.com - Build a Budget 4.1 Motor!

You might even consider a newer 3.8 like some guys have done.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Siamese bores for the larger bore, only available with the earlier 14 bolt oil pan and thinner decks compared to a 109 block. They changed from year to year too so the lifter valley and valley wall bracing changed. The outer walls of the block are bulged to keep enough water around the bores so you need different HRParts mounts to clear. To sum it up, larger bore block with siamese bores that inherits all of the short comings of the other pre 109 blocks. Definately worth building but you need to know what you're getting into.

 

[MY85pontiac]

ok well clearly you guys know way more than me so i'll give some input as to what i'm attempting to do.

i want a buick V6 around 250 HP, maybe even 300. it will be N/A, i want to stick with using a Qjet and right now that means using the 4.1 intake which i do have but i'm wondering if it will flow well enough given the cam i'm looking at. the cam is a comp cams 260H. i looked at lunati, crane etc and aside from edelbrock, comp cams seems to be the only one that makes cams for my application. i dont think a turbo cam would work very well but maybe you all can enlighten me on this.

the engine will be used in a daily driver with some track use and by some i mean maybe once or twice a year just for fun. i'm looking at using hedman headers because i dont think the stock exhaust manifolds will work for what i'm wanting to do. mostly i'm focusing on getting air and fuel in faster and getting exhaust out faster. compression will be stock but if possible i may go up to 9:1 and that's it. gearing for the car will most likely be 3.42 with a 2004r. but i could be persuaded to go with a 3.73 gear if it will match well with the cam i want but i'm not sure about using a 3.73 gear.

i want to go with a 252 block just for the extra cubic inches but i'm ok with a 3.8 block. no stroking, nothing out of the ordinary for a basic rebuild basically unless it's gonna get me more power. would the stock internals hold up to 250-300 HP? if not what needs to be beefed up? i was wanting 200-250 HP but i figure that's too easy and not enough grunt for my liking. would the heads as is flow well enough and more importantly would the 4.1 intake flow enough for the power i'm wanting?

i'm not sure what else to ask as i'm wanting to keep it "stock" (i use that term loosely here) while just putting in/on basic bolt on stuff, cam headers intake, etc. so am i on the right track or am i a total tard? admittedly i dont know as much about these engines as i should given my car has one in it.

 

[novaderrik]

for what you are doing, you'd save a ton of money and aggravation if you just built a mild 350 Chevy for it. build it for low to mid range torque and run 3.08 gears if you don't have an overdrive and 3.42 gears if you do have an overdrive.
build it right and drive it right and expect gas mileage in the mid to high 20's if you drive nice, and it will run smoother and make more torque all thru the powerband than a naturally aspirated Buick 4.1 V6 will.

 

[MY85pontiac]

that's awfully discouraging. what about a buick 350? wouldnt that just drop in since the V6's are based off the 350 design?

 

[novaderrik]

it would bolt up to the bellhousing, but you'd be on your own for motor mounts since the buick V8 was never put in a G body. then you'd have to deal with the exhaust.
but then if you were gonna do a Buick V8, then you might as well just go big and get a 455 for not much more than the 350 Buick.
but for sheer performance vs cost, you can't beat a small block Chev.

 

[charlief1]

ok well clearly you guys know way more than me so i'll give some input as to what i'm attempting to do.

i want a buick V6 around 250 HP, maybe even 300. it will be N/A, i want to stick with using a Qjet and right now that means using the 4.1 intake which i do have but i'm wondering if it will flow well enough given the cam i'm looking at. the cam is a comp cams 260H. i looked at lunati, crane etc and aside from edelbrock, comp cams seems to be the only one that makes cams for my application. i dont think a turbo cam would work very well but maybe you all can enlighten me on this.

the engine will be used in a daily driver with some track use and by some i mean maybe once or twice a year just for fun. i'm looking at using hedman headers because i dont think the stock exhaust manifolds will work for what i'm wanting to do. mostly i'm focusing on getting air and fuel in faster and getting exhaust out faster. compression will be stock but if possible i may go up to 9:1 and that's it. gearing for the car will most likely be 3.42 with a 2004r. but i could be persuaded to go with a 3.73 gear if it will match well with the cam i want but i'm not sure about using a 3.73 gear.

i want to go with a 252 block just for the extra cubic inches but i'm ok with a 3.8 block. no stroking, nothing out of the ordinary for a basic rebuild basically unless it's gonna get me more power. would the stock internals hold up to 250-300 HP? if not what needs to be beefed up? i was wanting 200-250 HP but i figure that's too easy and not enough grunt for my liking. would the heads as is flow well enough and more importantly would the 4.1 intake flow enough for the power i'm wanting?

i'm not sure what else to ask as i'm wanting to keep it "stock" (i use that term loosely here) while just putting in/on basic bolt on stuff, cam headers intake, etc. so am i on the right track or am i a total tard? admittedly i dont know as much about these engines as i should given my car has one in it.

This should help you on the intake some.:biggrin:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/be.../281474-modification-4-1-4-barrel-intake.html

As far as reaching the 250-300 HP level then you really need to do some reading in the B4Black section. Derrik is completely right about swaping a Chevy (God I can't believe I said it) into your car. It's really cheper and it will get you where you want for a daily driver.

 

[MY85pontiac]

no offense but SBC swaps have been done so much that i dont want do one even though i know a SBC would be easier to do.

i dont see how it'd be that hard to do this with a buick V6.

fact is if i went with a SBC i'd have to buy everything for it, an engine,accessory drive and everything. with what i'm wanting i have most of what i need, an engine to rebuild, accessory drive, an intake. i dont see how it would be cheaper to get a SBC given i'd have to buy EVERYTHING for the swap when i already have 90% of the stuff i need to do a mildly built V6. i just happen to consider other options for this but i can just do this with my own engine and not go through the expense of getting a 4.1 engine or anything like that.

and i liked the link to the 4.1. i considered just cutting the whole center part out but i like what they did instead. awesome stuff there, good pics.

 

[MY85pontiac]

since i cant edit my last post...

would 200-250 HP be reasonable? beats 110 HP like it owes it money. if i can just double the power i'd be happy with it.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

it would bolt up to the bellhousing, but you'd be on your own for motor mounts since the buick V8 was never put in a G body. then you'd have to deal with the exhaust.
but then if you were gonna do a Buick V8, then you might as well just go big and get a 455 for not much more than the 350 Buick.
but for sheer performance vs cost, you can't beat a small block Chev.

The bellhousing and the motor mounts will all bolt up as will the front accessories. It's just 1 cylinder longer than the V6. It's a practical bolt in for the G-body and was available up until 1980. The range of performance parts is greater than for the NA Buick V6 (not the Turbo6 though) and there are lots of people over on V8Buick.com that can walk you though building one up with the right combination of factory and aftermarket parts to reach your 250-300hp on the street goal. Keep your Buick, Buick powered and if you have a Pontiac like your SN suggests, find a Pontiac engine and bolt it in.

 

[novaderrik]

The bellhousing and the motor mounts will all bolt up as will the front accessories. It's just 1 cylinder longer than the V6. It's a practical bolt in for the G-body and was available up until 1980. The range of performance parts is greater than for the NA Buick V6 (not the Turbo6 though) and there are lots of people over on V8Buick.com that can walk you though building one up with the right combination of factory and aftermarket parts to reach your 250-300hp on the street goal. Keep your Buick, Buick powered and if you have a Pontiac like your SN suggests, find a Pontiac engine and bolt it in.

what G body had a Buick V8 installed in it from the factory?
if the question is "how do i build a cheap, reliable, powerful engine for a daily driver", then the best and easiest answer is "start with a small block Chevy".
there is a reason they continue to be so popular.
i can pretty much guarantee that a 350hp 350 Chev can be built for less than a naturally aspirated 250hp 4.1 Buick V6. and i can almost guarantee that you will like the 350 better than the 4.1, and that it will get similar gas mileage.
you'd honestly give up 100 hp and a similar amount of torque with no hit in fuel economy just to keep it Buick powered?
another option- since you would be starting from scratch with a swap to a V8, anyways- would be to get a 5.3 out of a later model truck and put that in there.
for right around $1000 (the amount you'd have into machining and building the basic long block for either the Buick V6 or the 350 ) you can buy a complete takeout engine with a harness, ecm, and accessories. for a few hundred $$$ more you can get a 2wd 4L60E trans out of a 5.3 powered 2wd truck, Camaro, or GTO and bolt that behind it. and for a couple hundred more $$$ you can upgrade the fuel system in the Regal for efi if you shop smart and find a good junkyard donor for parts.
add it all up, and there is no reason why you couldn't swap in a maintenance free and efficient 5.3 andh ave it runningfor under $2500 or so. spend a little money for a tuning program that runs on a laptop, and you can tweak it for awesome economy when driving nice and awesome power when you want to play.

 

[charlief1]

what G body had a Buick V8 installed in it from the factory?
if the question is "how do i build a cheap, reliable, powerful engine for a daily driver", then the best and easiest answer is "start with a small block Chevy".
there is a reason they continue to be so popular.
i can pretty much guarantee that a 350hp 350 Chev can be built for less than a naturally aspirated 250hp 4.1 Buick V6. and i can almost guarantee that you will like the 350 better than the 4.1, and that it will get similar gas mileage.
you'd honestly give up 100 hp and a similar amount of torque with no hit in fuel economy just to keep it Buick powered?
another option- since you would be starting from scratch with a swap to a V8, anyways- would be to get a 5.3 out of a later model truck and put that in there.
for right around $1000 (the amount you'd have into machining and building the basic long block for either the Buick V6 or the 350 ) you can buy a complete takeout engine with a harness, ecm, and accessories. for a few hundred $$$ more you can get a 2wd 4L60E trans out of a 5.3 powered 2wd truck, Camaro, or GTO and bolt that behind it. and for a couple hundred more $$$ you can upgrade the fuel system in the Regal for efi if you shop smart and find a good junkyard donor for parts.
add it all up, and there is no reason why you couldn't swap in a maintenance free and efficient 5.3 andh ave it runningfor under $2500 or so. spend a little money for a tuning program that runs on a laptop, and you can tweak it for awesome economy when driving nice and awesome power when you want to play.

The Buick 350 was an option for the metric chasis cars, a very hard to find option, but it was an option. This was only up to 80 though.:frown:

 

[CTX-SLPR]

what G body had a Buick V8 installed in it from the factory?
if the question is "how do i build a cheap, reliable, powerful engine for a daily driver", then the best and easiest answer is "start with a small block Chevy".
there is a reason they continue to be so popular.
i can pretty much guarantee that a 350hp 350 Chev can be built for less than a naturally aspirated 250hp 4.1 Buick V6. and i can almost guarantee that you will like the 350 better than the 4.1, and that it will get similar gas mileage.
you'd honestly give up 100 hp and a similar amount of torque with no hit in fuel economy just to keep it Buick powered?
another option- since you would be starting from scratch with a swap to a V8, anyways- would be to get a 5.3 out of a later model truck and put that in there.
for right around $1000 (the amount you'd have into machining and building the basic long block for either the Buick V6 or the 350 ) you can buy a complete takeout engine with a harness, ecm, and accessories. for a few hundred $$$ more you can get a 2wd 4L60E trans out of a 5.3 powered 2wd truck, Camaro, or GTO and bolt that behind it. and for a couple hundred more $$$ you can upgrade the fuel system in the Regal for efi if you shop smart and find a good junkyard donor for parts.
add it all up, and there is no reason why you couldn't swap in a maintenance free and efficient 5.3 andh ave it runningfor under $2500 or so. spend a little money for a tuning program that runs on a laptop, and you can tweak it for awesome economy when driving nice and awesome power when you want to play.

I didn't say it was in a G-body, it was available in B-body LeSabres, C-body Electras, and the FWD Rivieras as an option till 1980. The rest of your comments on putting an SBC of any generation I'm going not disagree with most of your points but simply say "Keep you Buick a Buick, and you an SBC isn't the only way to get your stated power goals."

 

[WarWagon]

My85pontiac I have 2 n/a 3.8 recipe's for 270hp and 300hp respectively send Me a PM and I'll hook you up.

 

[MY85pontiac]

My85pontiac I have 2 n/a 3.8 recipe's for 270hp and 300hp respectively send Me a PM and I'll hook you up.

awesome thank you, PM sent.

as a general comment i WANT 250-300 HP but if i cant get it with what i'm wanting to do then fine, i wont reach that goal. i admit it is a lofty goal given i'm basically wanting to throw bolt in parts on it/in it with a general basic rebuild. is my goal attainable? probably not with the way i'm looking at doing it but i can at least say i didnt go with a SBC. i like SBCs but i dont want to be like 90% of the g-body owners out there and have a 350 in my car.

aside from the turbo guys snatching up filleted cranks and specific blocks these engines are cheap and plentiful so i can practice head porting, tearing one down and putting it back together just to have the experience so i can do it without fear of tearing up my own engine and harming it. i know i have a lot to learn about them and that would allow me to learn while doing, not just by reading.

i like my V6 and i'm an oddball. yeah my car is a pontiac but no i dont want a pontiac engine though i have thought about it. i like my buick V6 and yes that means making power without the benefit of SFI a turbo and other goodies is harder but that's ok, anything worth having isnt easy to come by. i want it to be different, i want it to be unusual, outside the norm. whats so wrong with that? if i wanted the easy way out yes i would get a used 350 have it rebuilt and thrown it in but that isnt what i want. this engine has never given me a problem. it has started up and ran without complaint even though i've beaten it like a red headed step child given the limited performance i get from it. i've had problems with carbs, water pumps but not the engine, EVER. it's hovering over 150K miles and with a fresh timing set put in at 100K miles i feel confident with this engine going another 100K easy. the rear main leaks a little, god i hate rope type seals but that's fixable now. it's never given up on me so i feel compelled to not give up on it. maybe you all can understand, then again maybe not.

 

[charlief1]

My85pontiac I have 2 n/a 3.8 recipe's for 270hp and 300hp respectively send Me a PM and I'll hook you up.

Just post them Adam. We all would benifit from them.:biggrin:

 

[Robert Wilson]

The bellhousing and the motor mounts will all bolt up as will the front accessories. It's just 1 cylinder longer than the V6. It's a practical bolt in for the G-body and was available up until 1980. The range of performance parts is greater than for the NA Buick V6 (not the Turbo6 though) and there are lots of people over on V8Buick.com that can walk you though building one up with the right combination of factory and aftermarket parts to reach your 250-300hp on the street goal. Keep your Buick, Buick powered and if you have a Pontiac like your SN suggests, find a Pontiac engine and bolt it in.

I agree it should work without issue. In the early 90's I put a Buick 350 in a GM H body and it was a bolt in using the V6 mounts and accessories.

 

[87natl]

Another vote for ....EASY SWAP.

I dropped a 1974 Buick 350 into a 1981 V6 Regal and it was an easy weeknd job. Pretty much everything lined up and bolted right in. I remember I had to change the fan shroud and went with a flex fan. The biggest PITA about it all was that the front springs couldn't support the weight change. Had to get springs out of a Chevy P/Up if I remember right. Been a long time ago, but it was a snap.