DIY wide-band O2 sensor controller?

[Steve Wood]

Thanks for no answer....I thought perhaps you could explain without your usual sarcasm but I think It took me long enuf to read the last half of 2001 and try to find something germane in the backbiting and name calling so I will forego your offer.

I guess no one will be well informed other than you at this rate. Digging out non emotional information on this topic is as hard as trying to buy components from the diy-efi list. I did not mean to be subtle in this.

 

[KendallF]

Amen, brotha! I also subscribed to the DIY-EFI list for a while..my current projects have basically reduced my time & interest in homebrew electronic gadgeteering so I'm not a current subscriber.

The one thing I brought away from that list was a whole lot of BSing and backbiting...and not much actual work going on. That's OK; I tend to be that way myself sometimes. However, I fail to see what could be at stake here other than ego.

FWIW, I have been doing loads of homebrew projects, and trying to post details here about 'em. If people want to copy them, more power to them. I have answered a bunch of emails about my fabrication projects from people who plan on doing the same thing. Maybe I should write up a user agreement?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
Thanks for no answer....I thought perhaps you could explain without your usual sarcasm but I think It took me long enuf to read the last half of 2001 and try to find something germane in the backbiting and name calling so I will forego your offer.

I guess no one will be well informed other than you at this rate. Digging out non emotional information on this topic is as hard as trying to buy components from the diy-efi list. I did not mean to be subtle in this.

For you to reach an unbiased opinion on any issue means that you need to do the research, and make up your own mind.

If your too, whatever, to research the subject to speak about it in an informed manner, then why do you keep going on and on about it?.

It's not my responsibility to inform you of things.

If you don't want to get the parts from SteveC then get the parts from Digikey. It would seem appropriate thou to tell Steve that.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by KendallF
Amen, brotha! I also subscribed to the DIY-EFI list for a while..my current projects have basically reduced my time & interest in homebrew electronic gadgeteering so I'm not a current subscriber.

The one thing I brought away from that list was a whole lot of BSing and backbiting...and not much actual work going on. That's OK; I tend to be that way myself sometimes. However, I fail to see what could be at stake here other than ego.

FWIW, I have been doing loads of homebrew projects, and trying to post details here about 'em. If people want to copy them, more power to them. I have answered a bunch of emails about my fabrication projects from people who plan on doing the same thing. Maybe I should write up a user agreement?

Not all folks think the same.
The EEs that were involved in the WB did so with the understanding that there would be an agreement to prevent others from cashing in on their work.

The stuff that I've done on my own, was released as a here, this is what worked for me (ie relocated MAF at the GNTtype site), but just because what works for me, doesn't mean that it's the only way.

I just happen to respect the ideas and wishes of others.

And if you did a users agreement, I would respect it. Without whining about it, because I understand that you have your motives, and right to use your intellectual property as you see fit. I wouldn't try an force my ideas on you.

 

[tminer]

Originally posted by bruce


Gads, make a gift out of something, and people still complain.

If you read the users agreement you'll understand what the rules are, if they are broken, and someone is making a buck off of others work that is piracy. How clear, or what part of that don't you get?.

I am not complaining, just expressing an opinion. I was also misled as I originally discovered the WB02 from the diy efi page which it seems is using the GNU style license. I have come to the conclusion that there is a rift between the wbo2 and efi projects now and that the wb02 is not under the GNU style license.

I don't exactly understand a lot about the agreement. In this post I asked a very specific question and haven't seen a response: "if I build a device that uses the diy-wb as a sensor, am I obligated to provide all details of my creation to the diy-wb project? Just trying to clarify what you consider an enhancement". I think I know the legal answer, I just want to know what you think that I have morally agreed to.

I do think that this is a wonderful gift. I have a lot of respect for you (Bruce) and others that stretch the envelope and share their results, methods, etc. If I didn't I wouldn't be honoring the agreement even if I don't particularly like it or fully understand it. I'd rather buy the preassembled board from AU than build one if the pcb and parts were free and delivered overnight. And my degree is in electronics (although I switched over to the dark side, software, many moons ago).

Tom

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by tminer


I don't exactly understand a lot about the agreement. In this post I asked a very specific question and haven't seen a response: "if I build a device that uses the diy-wb as a sensor, am I obligated to provide all details of my creation to the diy-wb project? Just trying to clarify what you consider an enhancement". I think I know the legal answer, I just want to know what you think that I have morally agreed to.

Nope. You can do anything you want with the output, as I read the agreement. That is not an enhancement of the devise.

If you use the design components of it. ie the heater controller voltages and currents and do that with a PIC then that is an enhancement of the devise.

As it is there are a few shops using the WB in doing custom tuning, that's also not a problem since what they are selling is tune-up work.

I have a guestion for those that thing the agreement is so over bearing.

Can someone sell knock off chips of what, JayC, JLubrant, and others sell?. There is no users agreement, so why not?. If someones sells a chip of a basic file of JayC and changes one entry, can someone sell it as being there design?.

How about the Power Plate?. Maybe copy the WI controllers, and do knock offs of them.

Maybe some things are just understood, and are just acceptable ways of being human, and decent.

Yes, for me it is about principal. If it was Joe Red Jay Bob Mike Harry or anyone else being ripped off, I would be hollering just as loud and long. Matter if fact I consider some of them as friends and would be real upset at someone cashing in on their work..

 

[tminer]

Originally posted by bruce


I have a guestion for those that thing the agreement is so over bearing.

Can someone sell knock off chips of what, JayC, JLubrant, and others sell?. There is no users agreement, so why not?. If someones sells a chip of a basic file of JayC and changes one entry, can someone sell it as being there design?.

Isn't every chip maker just ripping off GM? Where do you draw the line? I think the only protection that they have is that they are not sharing much info or using copy protection schemes. I suspect that the reason nobody but Bob makes "extender" chips for the MAF translator is common courtesy.

When I read the diy-wb agreement, I felt that one would not be able to use it for commercial tuning. I am glad to see that it is allowed.

I think we all know it boils down to what is legal and what is moral. Unfortunately, it was probably the responsibility of those making the promises to the EEs to protect them by forming a legal agreement and/or not promising more than what was legally enforceable. And I understand how that wasn't practical and the end result is reluctance to engage in future activity of the same nature. It’s kind of like why we have to have Good Samaritan laws. You'd think it would be common sense that if someone is trying to help someone that they shouldn't be held liable for an innocent mistake. But no, people got sued. Then who is going to help at the risk being sued? Now we have another set of laws.

Not trying to harp on the same idea, but I really do believe that the GNU concept is the solution. It doesn't cover what was promised in this case, but it is hopefully legally enforceable and provides some level of protection. It is already out there so no legal expenses developing something new. It would not surprise me if it is what it is because that is about all that can be done legally in these "gift" situations.

Tom

 

[JDEstill]

Originally posted by bruce
Can someone sell knock off chips of what, JayC, JLubrant, and others sell?. There is no users agreement, so why not?. If someones sells a chip of a basic file of JayC and changes one entry, can someone sell it as being there design?.

Bruce, the way I (and others I suspect) see it, if Jay:
- disassembled all the code
- published the cal docs
- said "this is exactly how everything works! Enjoy everyone!"
- said "change the value from X to Y in all these spots and you'll have a great chip"
- said "This is my gift to the world, I hope everyone finds it useful"

- and then went on to say "you can only use this information if you can make the changes yourself in hex and you have a chip burner to burn your own chip. You aren't allowed to make a chip for anyone else. If anyone is going to make a chip for others, it's me and me alone. And if you have to wait 6 months for the chip, tough, I'm a busy guy. And if you figure out an improvement to my programming you have to tell me."

A lot of us might find that a bit unreasonable. And I would fully expect people to violate his "users agreement".

John

 

[darkfa8]

...my thoughts

John,

I agree with your opinion and "hypothetical" reasoning on a conditional open source availability on our prime chip makers (Carter, Testa, Lubrant, Bailey, etc.).

I have read the DIY-WBO2 User Agreement and have the full zip file with all the info.. I have been following this project for quite a while.

Who ever organized the project and how to present it to the DIY list members and/or but eventually the greater public did not adaquately protect themselves from those who can do it better, faster, cheaper and in larger quantities.

I want one, and am willing to pay the originators, but I can't even pay .. or pay homeage via my dollars because of all this BS.

So, the project is now a Catch 22... I want one, but have to wait, can't find out when it will be available because the guy who makes them is too busy supposedly making them to respond to let me know he's making them and when they will be available... it comes down to a point where I don't give a crap about the User Agreement if I can't even get the damn product...

ANY person with common sense.. will go to whomever can offer the product in a more timely fashion, even if it may be more expensive.

ANY commercial entity who saw what was going on, and had any sort of legal background could see that this User Agreement had a giant hole in it. There are apparently NO Patents on the DIY-WBo2, NO copyrights... NO protection.. what the hell did the EE's expect?

Not everyone in this world, on the DIY lists, this board or any other group of people has good faith and morals.. some people are out to use, abuse and turn profit off of others ideas.. tangible or intellectual.. its been a big issue in music and more recently online.

Bruce, I do respect you, your advice, your experience and the proven results from all of what you've accomplished.. but I haven't been convinced that you're a business man or a lawyer.. and I think the entire User Agreement and the DIY-WBO2 project wasn't adaquatly reviewed by either such professionals.

The DIY-WBO2 project, as it is, seems destined to be, if it isn't already, a good example of how a good idea, a great product, trying to rest of the good morals of those developing it just doesn't cut it in the real world.

My appreciation for the development is well founded, but I'm dissapointed in the way it was and has been handled. An idea (or product), is in many cases no good to anyone if you can't share...but in this real world, you can't just "share" without protecting yourself first.

We understand it was a gift..to who? how many people actually got the benefit of this gift? Seems the "gift" was a limited time offer. Don't tell me it's a "gift" again, I get the point.

So, where can I be a end-user consumer and buy a WBO2 and not have to decipher all this "development" nonsense?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by tminer


Isn't every chip maker just ripping off GM?

NO, by law GM was supposed to release the source code to the general public, but the lawyers have been milking this case for 30 years now.

There was no agreement that informed the customer that there were any patents or other protection for their code.

And this is complete a tangent, to the issue.

The DIY-WB is of original concept. It wasn't copied from any pre existing work.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by JDEstill


Bruce, the way I (and others I suspect) see it, if Jay:
- disassembled all the code
- published the cal docs
- said "this is exactly how everything works! Enjoy everyone!"
- said "change the value from X to Y in all these spots and you'll have a great chip"
- said "This is my gift to the world, I hope everyone finds it useful"

- and then went on to say "you can only use this information if you can make the changes yourself in hex and you have a chip burner to burn your own chip. You aren't allowed to make a chip for anyone else. If anyone is going to make a chip for others, it's me and me alone. And if you have to wait 6 months for the chip, tough, I'm a busy guy. And if you figure out an improvement to my programming you have to tell me."

A lot of us might find that a bit unreasonable. And I would fully expect people to violate his "users agreement".

John

Ooops, there is an error in your logic, if it was Jays own code then he could say that if he wanted to.

The DIY-WB was not reverse engineered from anything.

 

[bruce]

Re: ...my thoughts

Originally posted by darkfa8

Who ever organized the project and how to present it to the DIY list members and/or but eventually the greater public did not adaquately protect themselves from those who can do it better, faster, cheaper and in larger quantities.

I want one, and am willing to pay the originators, but I can't even pay .. or pay homeage via my dollars because of all this BS.

So, the project is now a Catch 22... I want one, but have to wait, can't find out when it will be available because the guy who makes them is too busy supposedly making them to respond to let me know he's making them and when they will be available... it comes down to a point where I don't give a crap about the User Agreement if I can't even get the damn product...

Gads,
Your free to buy the parts anywhere you want to.
SteveC was offering them for a much lower price is all.

You want to buy the OZ kit, go right ahead. just remember your endorsing piracy.

If the DIY-WB hadn't been done, you would still have the only option of spends 100s of dollars. So your not out anything, and stand to only save a ton of money.

It's not a product.

It's a real shame to see this thread even continue, cause I don't see where the endorsing of piracy rates as Fast with Class..

 

[darkfa8]

...

i didn't say i'd endorse piracy.

my only "want" is to pay for the needed parts to build the DIY-WBO2 as-per the instructions provided by the diy-efi.com website...for my own personal, non-commercial use.

I guess until it is actually available again (the controller PCB), I'll just have to wait.

 

[GNVAIR]

Bruce, I will have to agree with Dan. I want and need a WB. I remember you telling me about where to get the PCB's. The problem is, the source is not very reliable at this time, nor does he even know when the PCB's will be available. I am a patient individual, but would like to recive something in a timley manner if I am going to part with my dollars. I say this because I dont want to endorse the piracy. I have no problem supporting/compensating people of the DIY-EFI board.
I guess what Dan and I are asking for is a straight, clear cut answer as to where we can get the PCB's. I have been over the DIY site many times and this answer for another source seems illusive

 

[FJM568]

I finally(early March) ended up getting the board(s) that I wanted(wanted spares in case I screw something up while soldering)...But I have been waiting to hear back about parts kit availability for the same amount of time...It has been since Oct/Nov when I initially put a request in for them...I know with the boards I didn't need to send any money first(was notified that boards were available and was next up on the list to get them as soon as I send money in), but I haven't heard ANYTHING at all about the parts kits other than what has been posted on the website...

Was I supposed to send money first for the parts kits and then wait for them, or was I to be notified the same way as I was with the boards that I am next on the list and to send the money for them to get them??? It has been say 6-7 months now that I have been waiting, which at this time, my car isn't even running, so the need isn't there at the moment, but would like to have one built by the time I get the car running...

 

[OKTurbo]

Fellows....

The PCB (Printed Circuit Boards) are now very easy to get. I ordered 3 boards and rec'd them within two weeks. They used to be made up in batches for group purchases, but now I think they're made up as needed.

Here's part of an e-mail I rec'd 3/6/02....

>>>>>>>Final cost for each board is $3.70. Shipping will be USPS First Class
Mail, and the price includes a new padded mailer.


Here is the final price including shipping matrix; The cash/check price
represents an already included discount for paying by cash.


Qty Ship Cash Total Paypal Total
1 $1.30 $5.00 $5.45
2 $1.53 $8.93 $9.49
3 $1.76 $12.86 $13.53
4 $1.99 $16.79 $17.58
5 $2.22 $20.72 $21.62
6 $2.45 $24.65 $25.66
7 $2.68 $28.58 $29.71
8 $2.91 $32.51 $33.75
9 $3.14 $36.44 $37.80


If paying by online credit card at PayPal.com, the account to pay is
'sportfury383@yahoo.com'.


Please, *PLEASE* include a note with your payment indicating your name,
email, and shipping address. Boards will be shipped in the order payments
arrive, first come first ship. You can send your payment via check
(personal ok) or M/O to:


Robert Valentine
53 Beacon Hill Rd
Port Washington, NY 11050


- Bob Valentine
- wideband@tecmark.com<<<<<<

I'd send Bob Valentine an e-mail if you want to order the boards.

The problem I've had is knowing whether or not I'll get the parts kit from Steve C. I missed out on the GP and went ahead and sent him a check hoping for one of the "left overs".

There is a parts list already made up that even has the DigiKey P/N's on it. Maybe us TurboBuick.com guys could get together and make our own parts kit GP?!?!?!

Anyone game?

John

 

[oldcelicafan]

I'm game! That is if this is ok with SteveC?

I attempted to email Bruce privately but my mail program/server didnt' want to send to his address.. (hmm. Bruce.. potentially email me privately? timg@www.speedtoys.com) to ask about this parts GB...

I don't want to support the OZ guy (I understand he is making money off of the project.. I think it is through him putting the kit together and charging more for it.. that is profit even if it is for a service...)

SO... I still want the PCB and parts... (and the sensor connector.. but I seem to remember that connector GB is piracy too???)...

Seems I can get the PCB as above, great!! But I'll only do so when I find out if I can get the parts kit too.. heh (makes sense right..)

I would rather not pay 3 times as much for the parts from Digikey.. I can wait for SteveC to sell his kits (I don't want him stuck with kits either right.. )

None of us know when SteveC has time to deliver the kits.. that is somewhat understandable and I'm not complaining.. I'm sure if this info is provided, we will send him our money.. and wait patiently for the kits... (but not for 6 months.. I'd rather pay the digikey price than wait that long..)

Problem is, for us to do a GB for the parts similar to SteveC (and make NO money off of it remember, we won't make a dime).. we would need like 500 kits... (right?)

Anyways... just wondering if we can get some tiny bit of info to progress from here (without pissing anybody off... or supporting piracy, or,etc..)

Be happy!!

 

[terryk]

If you can afford the $120 sensor, you can afford the $30 for the parts from Digikey. Very cheap.

 

[bruce]

On Parts:

Paypal used to notify SteveC when there was a credit in his account.

Key words, used to.

Steve hadn't seen any notifications, and just thought things were finally settling down. A couple days ago he just happened to check his account and found $900 that was just sitting there.

He making every effort to catch up.

 

[FJM568]

Back to a question that I asked in either this post or another one...

With the board(s), we could have just notified the guy by email that we wanted one...We were then put on a list...When our turn finally came up on the list, we were then notified that it was our turn to send the money in for the board(s)...Is it the same for the parts kits??? Do we have to send the money in first and then wait 6 months or were we put on a list to be notified when its our turn to send in money for the parts kits???

Can you answer this, Bruce???