Dumbsh*t and more

[turbojimmy]

Wasn't GSCA treated like an expletive (turned into ****) for YEARS until the new owner took over the board?

Jim

 

[top gun]

And just when I thought this thread might take a turn for the better the dribble arives to stir the pot yet again.

Jim C.

No Jimbo, just pointing out how turbosam makes you look like a ignorant redneck.

Were you raised by animals? In the backwoods somewhere?

 

[turbosam6]

Dude, I probably know more about the costs of those events than you think. You want to make it sound like it costs $50,000 to rent the track for the nats. Having been involved in track rentals, I have an idea what it costs and what the safety crew/vehicles cost to have on hand. Judging by what the GSCA charges racers and spectators, if you guys aren't making good $$$ then you need some business counseling. And lets not act like all those proceeds somehow magically find their way into racers pockets or into some form of benefit for the enthusiasts.

You can attempt to insult me all you want, it truly means nothing to me. Tell me I'm wrong, then back it up with facts, not just an attempted insult to discredit me.

 

[SGRIM]

Alright this has festered long enough....

I have received a ton of PM's about this thread and the other one....
I closed the other one already.

No need to point fingers and debate this. I will open the Octagon on T6P today and the wars can continue there.

We let this thread ride this long because it was going to happen one way or the other. We could have closed threads but it would have popped up in others so we just let it play out as sometimes you just have to do! I kept seeing spots of brightness in this thread and hoped it would go back to a meaningful discussion. It is kind of like the political section, keeps politics out of other threads (in theory anyway)!

It seems every year after the Nats, at least far as I can look back at, there is this type, or some other fall out over it. Jay has been telling me since we got back it was a matter of time before it happened

I have spoken with Jim, and met him at the Nats. He is a good guy. He is a straight no BS person. I think he did a great job with what he had to work with in BG. He seems to open to all suggestions and discussions. Emotions seem to have ran high here.

I am asking all parties involved to take the PERSONAL references out of this from here on out and take it to PM or if it must continue T6P. It is not right for the rest of the members to have to read this stuff. TurboBuick is supposed to be G rated. It is time to go back to that and keep this board what it is supposed to be, something every TB owner can enjoy and be proud of:biggrin:



I am going to go ahead and raise a new discussion at this point too... We are looking into doing a series of events next year, or 09 FOR SURE, that would include 4-6 events all over the country. I need some serious feedback on this before we make any more comments. We differently will have at least 1 event next year. The goal will be Buick Turbo Regals racing all day in several classes. Along with a V8 Turbo class All events would result in huge payouts for the racers. Any input will be appreciated!

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Wow, I’m not sure how to respond to this. I have been a GSCA member since I bought my car in 2000. I’ve attended the GSCA nationals 4 times since. Is this the treatment I am to expect from GSCA staff towards its members???

Why would I want to continue being a member of a club that conducts itself in such a manner? A club that allows its representatives to belittle and threaten physical harm to its members like you did here in this thread? How would they expect to retain their current membership, but to increase it as well??

Wow!!

Before I get too upset let me address a couple of the comments you made in your first post...

1) "When you went to the tower and asked the track staff where the Race Director Jim Rodgers was you had your facts wrong. Jim Rodgers is not the Race Director."

You are correct, I did go to the tower and ask for Jim Rodgers. This was because I was told by other racers that Jim Rodgers was the one I wanted to talk to. I didn't know till later, and after you told me "to get out of here", that YOU were the director. If a general racers meeting were held, that problem wouldn’t have happened.


2) "When I was standing 4 feet from you while Brock (Track staff) explained to you that the card another gent drew just happened to be your number in line, that they would pull you out and IF there were not enough cars to pair up that you would get a by run at the end of that bracket you proceeded to go on about how he told you that you had a by run period and I find it amazing that you were the only one that could not pay attention to that fact. You were wrong yet, I offered to try and offer you a condolence prize even though I clearly heard what he said and you had your facts confused yet again. After you telling me what you were going to do that is when I told you - c'ya."

YOU ARE WRONG JIM. You were NOT there when I was first told I had a by-run. The gentleman that presented me with the car told me that I had a by-run, to pull up under the tower, and once all the cars in the class ran that I would be asked to pull to the line and make the by-run. He said NOTHING else. I did EXACTLY as told, and no one told me that anything had changed (How hard would it have been to say something?). Again, if a general racers meeting were held, that problem might not have happened.

A condolence prize? What are you talking about? You never said anything of the sort? Beside, I didn’t want a prize… I wanted to race! I worked on my car for months getting it ready for this race. I spent thousands of dollars on parts, and thousands of dollars on the trip to Bowling Green. All that to get knocked out in the first round due to miscommunication between track staff and racers – something that was out of my control.

P.S. How many by-runs did the Regal Modified class have in the 1st round? I heard 3, and that 1st round would be run again (I didn’t witness this first hand, but was told this by two racers there Saturday). Is that correct? If so, then how flawless is your by-run card presentation?


3) "Then you tell Richard Lassiter that I told you that you had a by run. Wrong yet again. Brock even stated that he was the one that told you about the by run gamblers card."

That is ABSOLUTELY false. I never spoke with Richard Lassiter. He rode off on his mini bike before I could speak to him, and that was after you blew up (like you also did here in this forum) and told me to “get this car out of here, I don’t have time for this anymore”.

P.S. What's a "by run gamblers card"? Please don't tell me that it was a way that I could have gotten into another race/class, because that's what I asked YOU. I asked if there was any way that I could buy back into the class or jump to another bracket. You said NO.



Finishing, I’d just like to say that what you obviously don't seem to remember that this (the GSCA Nats) is an event for CLUB members. Granted, there are a lot of seasoned and professional racers there, BUT there are also a lot of less experienced racers too. This is something you guys should always keep that in mind. Taking a little extra time to explain things to everyone would pay off in the long run and help avoid situations like this.

Conducting yourself like you’ve been doing does nothing but alienate fellow club members, make the club look bad, and make you look like a fool.

Regards,
-Banning Cohen.

Banning,

I think you should call Richard Lassiter, you are going to get nowhere here. If the past tells us something your call to the big guy will get you nowhere but that's your best bet. Just a suggestion.

Hopefully we'll see you in Norwalk next year, it'll give you another few weeks to prep the car.

If you're coming to Columbus, stop by the JCC tent, I'll buy you a beer!

Art.

 

[BillyRValentine]

Dude, I probably know more about the costs of those events than you think. You want to make it sound like it costs $50,000 to rent the track for the nats. Having been involved in track rentals, I have an idea what it costs and what the safety crew/vehicles cost to have on hand. Judging by what the GSCA charges racers and spectators, if you guys aren't making good $$$ then you need some business counseling. And lets not act like all those proceeds somehow magically find their way into racers pockets or into some form of benefit for the enthusiasts.

You can attempt to insult me all you want, it truly means nothing to me. Tell me I'm wrong, then back it up with facts, not just an attempted insult to discredit me.

I am sorry Sam as I must have missed the part where I attempted to discredit or insult you in my last post. If I did please point it out to me as there are times where I do have oversights. OK, so you have rented tracks, which ones, for how long, how much and what was the insurance costs? I would also like to know if you had your own track staff present and if so were they being paid and were there expenses associated with putting them up (Hotel) for the duration of the race? When you get that all together please let me know and I will factor that into the costs that I am aware of and let you know where you stand. As far as me listing a budget, that is not prudent and I would hope one would understand why it is not. If this was all about money to Richard then I would suggest to him to get many more classes of much wider variety and I guarantee that the money would be pouring in. It has been about the fellowship but a few crabs have always wanted to taint the entire bunch because they have issues with the GSCA. It always amazes me that people year after year act as if Richard Lassiter uses this as his income. This started out as a club that decided "Hey let's put a race and show together" and it took off from there. It wasn’t until the internet that and certain key figures got involved that things began taking a turn towards the dumps. Add to it that some believe that they are entitled to financial statements because they are a club member and as such voice their discontent when they are not.

I will let you in on a little secret. Years ago I joined the NMCA to get a break on tickets and entry fees for races as I was the crew chief for a friend of mine who ran EZ Street with a SBC/N2O powered Mustang and as a friend of mine pointed out last night when he called me neither of us EVER got financial statements of any type from them. The payouts from the club was not where the money was at, the real money was from the sponsors. You know come to think about it, I have let my NHRA membership lapse but I have never received a financial statement from them either, yet I don’t go around bashing them and demanding to know how the financials work. I went to the events to have fun and knew that I had to pay out to do so but it was fine with me. To add to that point I will say that the amount of prize money the NHRA awards in a small percentage of the total grossed by the winning teams in each class. That doesn't seem to matter much because it isn't really the issue. The issue is that some folks feel that by being a member they are entitled to dictate how things should be run. Well maybe one day there will be a board of directors but until then I would imagine that the GSCA will continue to operate as it has.

If it is such a cancer then why does it continue to have so many members every year? I have heard that it is because people go there to see others and that is the ONLY reason. I call BS and I do so because they could go anywhere to see each other. Heck, there is Indy and Norwalk but none have the participation that the Nats does PERIOD.

Jim C.

 

[BillyRValentine]

Banning,

I think you should call Richard Lassiter, you are going to get nowhere here. If the past tells us something your call to the big guy will get you nowhere but that's your best bet. Just a suggestion.

Hopefully we'll see you in Norwalk next year, it'll give you another few weeks to prep the car.

If you're coming to Columbus, stop by the JCC tent, I'll buy you a beer!

Art.

Art, the last time I checked he was getting somewhere. I offered up a solution or did you miss that post? If Banning will be happier in Norwalk then I wish him the best. If he would like to take me up on my offer then it will stand. This is a PRIME example of the slimy tactics by the JCC and others that I have been talking about.

Jim C.

 

[turbotwister]

BANNING FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!:biggrin:


Nick,

 

[$1987 GN$]

subscribed

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Art, the last time I checked he was getting somewhere. I offered up a solution or did you miss that post? If Banning will be happier in Norwalk then I wish him the best. If he would like to take me up on my offer then it will stand. This is a PRIME example of the slimy tactics by the JCC and others that I have been talking about.

Jim C.

Jim, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please point out slimy tactics by me.

My point to Banning is that posting in this thread to you is not going to get him anywhere with his concerns about the whole affair. Better to take it up with the guy driving the bus.

Art.

 

[gnxtc2]

I've going to the Nats since 2001. Aside from the 25th year anniversity, the attendance has been going down. I was there first hand and that is no hearsay.

I think the problem is everybody.....both the GSCA and its members/ex-members.

I've been in BG where I've seen first hand where the GSCA protects their own and screws the racers. This is bad because the racer that was screwed will tell his friends, then the friend will tell his and so on. The GSCA should stop with their politics and concentrate more on its members. Enough is enough.

Then we have members that complain about what they heard from others but have no first experience. This causes a negative look on the event. There is no need for threats, yelling or any other hostile action.

Jim, I am not taking sides on the Banning incident. I was standing right next to you guys when you started to yell at him. This caused a scene which others looked on. You didn't even let him explain the situation to you. Yes, you are/were the Race Director but you got alittle excited over it. Maybe if you, Banning and Brock would have talked it out, maybe it could have been resolved easily. Maybe there was a mistake and no one let anyone know but we won't know that.

We all have to get along. Stuff like this will bring down a event/club. Once that goes away, then the friends made will go away also.

I too had a problem with the GSCA with the way they run things. Example:
I did not pre-register this year because I did not know if my car was going to be ready. I drive up to the table and want to purchase advance tickets. Yes, the price went up because I did not pre-register....fine, it's my fault, it has been printed that price will be higher so there is no surprise. First I'll post what I needed to purchase then the problem.

8 spectator tickets $20.......$160
1 pit pass $22...................$22
1 Registration fee..............$50
Total...............................$235

The problem came when the lady told me that she had to charge me the $50 Late registration fee because I wanted a Pit Pass. I asked why am I being charged the Registration fee if I am not racing just spectating and hanging with my friends? I have to register to enter the pits with my vehicle???? She goes on to tell me then park on the outside and walking in, nice attitude. I don't know his name but there is was a guy with a beard and shorts wearing a pink GSCA hat standing behind the table hearing my conversation. When I started to ask my questions to the lady, he walked away. There is no mentioning of paying a Registration fee for a Pit Pass in the GSXtra or elsewhere. So basically I got charged $77 to enter the pits with my vehicle. Jim could you answer why I was charged the registration fee? I don't want to hear, I'm not in charge of that, call Bennett or Lassiter. Jim, you have their numbers and you call them and let me know.

After the above problem will I still attend the Nats at BG, yep. Will I bad mouth the event, Nope.

It all comes down to getting along. If one has a problem with someone, give a call, talk to each other, if no one talks, nothing gets resolved and the problem continues. No need for the male testosterone.

Can't we all get along.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[BillyRValentine]

Jim, I have no idea what you are talking about. Please point out slimy tactics by me.

My point to Banning is that posting in this thread to you is not going to get him anywhere with his concerns about the whole affair. Better to take it up with the guy driving the bus.

Art.

Thank you for making that clear. I still do not like some of the politics that seem to continue year after year but do I think less of you Art; no. I believe that you and I have had a fairly decent rapport. I just believe that we see things very differently. As for the slimy tactics I will say that it sure seems to me that every time there is an issue with the GSCA that you and several other key figures seem to always be there pouring fuel on the fire. Whether or not it is to promote another event I don't know as I cannot tell what is truly going on in your heart but it sure comes across that way. A prime example is the "RRR" stuff and it always seems to be the same crew perpetuating the problems. What else am I to think? I came into this community with a completely open mind. I read all of the stuff almost two years before going to the Nats. When I asked a friend about it his response to me was go and see for yourself and I did. I found allot of the people that were getting bashed to be decent people in my dealings with them. I have watched as Ron Joseph has been the whipping boy for many online jokes and jabs. Those are but two examples, (The "RRR" and Ron by himself.) I have MANY more within my memory. I cannot for the life of me understand why it is if someone is not liked that people just stay clear of them. Instead they take things to a personal level that is not only improper but stands to make mortal enemies. If the GSCA is not liked then just steer clear of it but instead it would appear that a select group (Including yourself.) take any opportunity to exploit any issue within its ranks or functions, even the most minor of issues. I hope you have a better understanding of my position and would hope that we can remain friendly even though we may have to agree to disagree.

Jim C.

 

[BillyRValentine]

gnxtc2@aol.com, give me a few and I will answer as much of this as I can for you. I am on call and have to go but will return to reply ASAP.

Jim C.

PS- I will say this before I leave, the issue with Banning was that I was trying to explain something to him and I am not sure why but it was apparent we were on different wave lengths or something. If I fealt that I was completely in the right then I would not offer to personally pay his registration fee for next year but I won't take the entire burdon upon my shoulders. I do hope that he and I have resolved this issue and move forward.

J

 

[EightSecV6]

I dont want an answer or a response to this post for fear of another personal threat but I will share some of my GSCA experiences.This is the 1st GS Nationals I have not attended in 15 years, and with the bozos they have at the helm, I dont feel I missed much.The race fees have always been too high BUT there was a time when REAL prize money was paid out. I have won ALOT of money from the GS club. I dont have 100% recollection of how much but it is ALOT.I AM SURE someone can confirm the payments and the years. I won super 16 2 or 3 times, once it paid $2000 to win, I split another time due to rain and got $1000, The last time I won s16 (2005)I got $600 and an additional $300 for low qualifier. I got paid in the semis I think $450 and it goes on and on,what can I say,it's not my fault I have been successful:biggrin:ALL PAID BY THE CLUB, I never had to hunt down sponsors, the CLUB wrote the the checks. 2006 didnt pay shlt, Jim Dotson was promised a jacket,free admission and a machine shop gift certificate that he still has not received, he paid his ADDITIONAL $50 s16 fee. This year I heard the winner of S16T got $75 WOW!!! With a racers ticket and $50 s16 ticket, that didnt even cover the entry fee! What has changed? beats the heck out of me???????I go racing to win prizes and money, sorry but that is my agenda.If I wanted to spend $1500 to hang out with my friends and congregate I would throw a badass BBQ and nobody would leave without smile and I could have a plaque made for $25 to remember it. just wanted to share my thoughts.

 

[gnxtc2]

I would throw a badass BBQ and nobody would leave without smile and I could have a plaque made for $25 to remember it. just wanted to share my thoughts.

Does this means that are going to be some wild women at the MAGNA meeting this Sunday???? :biggrin: :biggrin:

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[EightSecV6]

Does this means that are going to be some wild women at the MAGNA meeting this Sunday???? :biggrin: :biggrin:

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

ABSOLUTELY!! You gonna make the trek???

 

[gnxtc2]

I totally forgot about it. Have to work a double Saturday night 11:30pm to Sunday 2:00pm.

How far are you from Rhodes Custom Auto? Maybe when I pick up my car from them, I could stop by if its not too far. I know the way from 95.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[BillyRValentine]

I too had a problem with the GSCA with the way they run things. Example:
I did not pre-register this year because I did not know if my car was going to be ready. I drive up to the table and want to purchase advance tickets. Yes, the price went up because I did not pre-register....fine, it's my fault, it has been printed that price will be higher so there is no surprise. First I'll post what I needed to purchase then the problem.

8 spectator tickets $20.......$160
1 pit pass $22...................$22
1 Registration fee..............$50
Total...............................$235

The problem came when the lady told me that she had to charge me the $50 Late registration fee because I wanted a Pit Pass. I asked why am I being charged the Registration fee if I am not racing just spectating and hanging with my friends? I have to register to enter the pits with my vehicle???? She goes on to tell me then park on the outside and walking in, nice attitude. I don't know his name but there is was a guy with a beard and shorts wearing a pink GSCA hat standing behind the table hearing my conversation. When I started to ask my questions to the lady, he walked away. There is no mentioning of paying a Registration fee for a Pit Pass in the GSXtra or elsewhere. So basically I got charged $77 to enter the pits with my vehicle. Jim could you answer why I was charged the registration fee? I don't want to hear, I'm not in charge of that, call Bennett or Lassiter. Jim, you have their numbers and you call them and let me know.

The gent was probably Bennett Jones and he most likely didn't get involved because you were not asking him the questions. He is not a bad guy and had you asked him I am sure he would have given you a straight answer. If you are only spectating then yes you would need to park outside the gate. Despite what some think the track rental and insurance for the week is allot more than what the sceptics think. I remember going to an NMCA event before Ashley and I got involved in EZ Street and having to pay to race in order to park inside the gate so this is nothing new to class racing. As far as me calling them to give you an answer lets get this straight - I am not here to serve you. I can ask them but to tell me what you don't want to hear over something I had nothing to do with is out of line. I commend you for having the gumption to admit your lack of planning in relation to the problem you had and hopefully should you come next year all with go more smoothly.

After the above problem will I still attend the Nats at BG, yep. Will I bad mouth the event, Nope.

I hope so.

It all comes down to getting along. If one has a problem with someone, give a call, talk to each other, if no one talks, nothing gets resolved and the problem continues.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

I would agree with that.

Jim C.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Thank you for making that clear. I still do not like some of the politics that seem to continue year after year but do I think less of you Art; no. I believe that you and I have had a fairly decent rapport. I just believe that we see things very differently. As for the slimy tactics I will say that it sure seems to me that every time there is an issue with the GSCA that you and several other key figures seem to always be there pouring fuel on the fire. Whether or not it is to promote another event I don't know as I cannot tell what is truly going on in your heart but it sure comes across that way. A prime example is the "RRR" stuff and it always seems to be the same crew perpetuating the problems. What else am I to think? I came into this community with a completely open mind. I read all of the stuff almost two years before going to the Nats. When I asked a friend about it his response to me was go and see for yourself and I did. I found allot of the people that were getting bashed to be decent people in my dealings with them. I have watched as Ron Joseph has been the whipping boy for many online jokes and jabs. Those are but two examples, (The "RRR" and Ron by himself.) I have MANY more within my memory. I cannot for the life of me understand why it is if someone is not liked that people just stay clear of them. Instead they take things to a personal level that is not only improper but stands to make mortal enemies. If the GSCA is not liked then just steer clear of it but instead it would appear that a select group (Including yourself.) take any opportunity to exploit any issue within its ranks or functions, even the most minor of issues. I hope you have a better understanding of my position and would hope that we can remain friendly even though we may have to agree to disagree.

Jim C.

Jim,

I too have no bad feelings about you. We have gone at it before and you felt strongly about your opinion and I did mine. That’s OK with me and when it was all over I didn’t think any less of you. We have been on opposite sides of an argument as well as the same side at times. The triple R stickers have to do with the three individuals the “R’s” represent and the attitude they have within their little circle. The other individual you mention there is a personal issue with. I can’t get into it on advice of legal counsel.

I have had and still do have issues with the way the Nats are run. I was willing to eat crow, swallow my pride, put my tail between my legs and attend the Nats this year. You know the story and I don’t want to get into it again but when I was disqualified for political reasons it became apparent that the triple R’s and their inner circle that run the Nats have even less interest in any type of reconciliation than I do. I made it public knowledge that I was going to go, that I would play nice and not start up anything and then I’m told I’m disqualified, not welcome and that the gates would be locked and we would not be let in. Put yourself in my shoes for a minute, if that happened to you, would you be willing to try and reconcile? You can put it on me and say I poked and provoked them for years but they poked too. Prior to the thread about me being disqualified, others and I had actually been pretty good regarding bashing. A little poke here and there but nothing compared to the way it has been. I personally toned it down for a few reasons. The first reasons was the respect I got working with john Chamberlain on the 25th anniversary T-Shirt. That was pretty cool and I made friends with John through the process. It was also becoming clear that nothing would change regardless of how much you say and I was just getting tired of it.

The whole deal with the DQ just fired me up again. I still think I’m being pretty good about it. I got into it pretty good for a few weeks with Jim Rogers but that’s over, I know where he stands as well as all the people behind the scenes he was penning for, it’s all good. I did not bash the Nats before or after the event. Do I have an opinion, yes, did I start any of it, no. If you notice, the people complaining and starting the various threads are not what you would coin as the usual suspects. In fact, I’d say the majority are people I don’t even know. The thread was moved over to TB.com where typically things are more pro-Nats than on other boards. Even here people who I don’t know are commenting negatively. Are you going to blame it on me? I doubt these people even know who I am. For me the DQ really cemented that things will never be better between the Nats and me. I think there was an opportunity to possibly have a truce but that went out the window with the DQ. Believe me, I would not ever suggest that having allowed me to race would have corrected things but I don’t think it could have hurt.

Art.

 

[BillyRValentine]

I dont want an answer or a response to this post for fear of another personal threat but I will share some of my GSCA experiences.This is the 1st GS Nationals I have not attended in 15 years, and with the bozos they have at the helm, I dont feel I missed much.The race fees have always been too high BUT there was a time when REAL prize money was paid out. I have won ALOT of money from the GS club. I dont have 100% recollection of how much but it is ALOT.I AM SURE someone can confirm the payments and the years. I won super 16 2 or 3 times, once it paid $2000 to win, I split another time due to rain and got $1000, The last time I won s16 (2005)I got $600 and an additional $300 for low qualifier. I got paid in the semis I think $450 and it goes on and on,what can I say,it's not my fault I have been successful:biggrin:ALL PAID BY THE CLUB, I never had to hunt down sponsors, the CLUB wrote the the checks. 2006 didnt pay shlt, Jim Dotson was promised a jacket,free admission and a machine shop gift certificate that he still has not received, he paid his ADDITIONAL $50 s16 fee. This year I heard the winner of S16T got $75 WOW!!! With a racers ticket and $50 s16 ticket, that didnt even cover the entry fee! What has changed? beats the heck out of me???????I go racing to win prizes and money, sorry but that is my agenda.If I wanted to spend $1500 to hang out with my friends and congregate I would throw a badass BBQ and nobody would leave without smile and I could have a plaque made for $25 to remember it. just wanted to share my thoughts.

If you don't want a response then don't post. Personal threats? Don't drag the mess from the other thread into this one. So you admit to having won good money from the club but then in the same breath degrade the GSCA that paid you so well. You appear to me to be a fair weather type of person. As long as things are going your way then all is gravy, the minute they are not then let the shinanigins begin. I am amazed that you are so blatent regarding your loyalty to a club that had done you right by your own admitance but then you turn on when the wind changes . Hey, at least you made it public.

I also find it ironic that one minute you want me to PM you and I decline. Then after you keep on poking at me I call instead of going back and forth on the PC you state you are too busy to talk. After all I remember a comment you made in a post a while back basically stating that if someone took issue with you then they should call, that is why you listed your number. When I do then you tell me you are too busy to talk. If that is the case then where do you find the time to be on the computer?

Let's not turn this into another mudfest. You don't want to answer those questions then so be it but the first paragraph is dead on target by your own admission Billy. You didn't want to share your thoughts, you want to fan a dwindling fire and then pull out a lawn chair. Progressive actions only come from progressive thoughts.

Jim C.