Dyno Challenge Results.

[sullen]

Torque numbers

Ok... I wasn't going to post anything but... And FWIW, I'm not a billet wheel hater as I had one of the, if not the very first billet 6768!!

But last year on Richard Clark's dyno we had a Te45a P-trim car make more HP & TQ at the same boost level (20psi) as the 6765 car listed above with a smaller combination otherwise!!. We never went higher than the 20psi with it...

Also last year we had a car there with a very old version Limit Engineering Te70 Q-trim that made the same HP but much more torque as Derek's billet-71turbo at the same boost level (24psi). Again with a smaller combination otehrwise!!. We never went higher than 24psi with it.

I'm not posting this to "call out" anyone's car, combination, or tuner. But I would like to hear thoughts from the turbo guru's....??


K.

You bring up some good points!
I'd also like to hear from the turbo gurus regarding the torque produced by the newer turbos.
Seems somewhat disappointing for a torque junkie.

Was looking specifically at the 6265 and 6765,
as those are both what my combos would call for when it comes time to upgrade..


Less torque than their older counterparts..

TE-44 pulls
2nd pull = 316.9 hp @ 5089 rpm / 364.7 tq @ 4132 rpm. Boost 16.7psi, 18* WOT timing.

Billet 6265 with ACBB pulls
2nd pull = 319.8 hp @ 5447 rpm / 333.9 tq @ 4796 rpm. Boost 16.7psi, same timing.
_______________________________________________________________


Cast 6765 dbb, S cover.
2nd pull = 452.8 hp @ 5061 rpm / 474 tq @ 4970 rpm. 20.9 psi.

Billet 6765 air cooled bb, S cover.
1st pull = 429 hp @ 5110 rpm / 448.6 tq @ 4847 rpm. 20 psi.



And for the record, I'm not a billet wheel hater either.
Have many PTE products on both my cars, and looking forward to pte ball bearing turbos for both of my cars in the near future.

Just want the most torque possible being as they're both street cars......
Do NOT want to give up midrange torque that makes the cars a blast on the street for more power up top for a car that will rarely or never see a track.
Would it be better to stay with cast wheels for someone in my situation??

I was ready to convert to billet dbb for spoolup alone, but if it means loosing torque very confused now

 

[NCTURBOS]

I'd also like to hear from the turbo gurus regarding the torque produced by the newer turbos.
Seems somewhat disappointing for a torque junkie.

One of the reasons might be because of the lack of RPM... Why were most of the runs only taken to 5k rpm, give or take? All the cars had combinations to go well above that (and still make power), and some of the torque converters aren't even getting efficient yet...??

...dyno-ing their cars and not holding anything back.

Really!!


Also... Was there any A/F recording??

Lastly... The Te44 to billet 6265 is barely a fair comparison... I would hope the 6265 would kick its A$$ everywhere, with the proper tune!! I would have liked to have seen either the "old school" Ta61/Te61 or Ta62/Te62 vs the 6265.


K.

 

[Darkcyde]

HOLY ****

its been a long time sense I have actually been excited to read a thread!
this looks like an awesome testing threat and I am sure this will end up pages long. I know I will have questions when I'm done thats for sure.

Patrick wow, thank you! HEY QUICK QUESTION........played with the new 'slim' tial wastegates, straight up water cooled!?

 

[TurboDave]

Lastly... The Te44 to billet 6265 is barely a fair comparison... I would hope the 6265 would kick its A$$ everywhere, with the proper tune!! I would have liked to have seen either the "old school" Ta61/Te61 or Ta62/Te62 vs the 6265.


K.

K.

I was beginning to think I was the only one that thought that was an unfair comparison when I was over there watching the tests. That 6265 should have buried that TE44, even if they were both journal bearing turbos.

 

[gnloyalty877]

You bring up some good points!
I'd also like to hear from the turbo gurus regarding the torque produced by the newer turbos.
Seems somewhat disappointing for a torque junkie.

Was looking specifically at the 6265 and 6765,
as those are both what my combos would call for when it comes time to upgrade..


Less torque than their older counterparts..

TE-44 pulls
2nd pull = 316.9 hp @ 5089 rpm / 364.7 tq @ 4132 rpm. Boost 16.7psi, 18* WOT timing.

Billet 6265 with ACBB pulls
2nd pull = 319.8 hp @ 5447 rpm / 333.9 tq @ 4796 rpm. Boost 16.7psi, same timing.
_______________________________________________________________


Cast 6765 dbb, S cover.
2nd pull = 452.8 hp @ 5061 rpm / 474 tq @ 4970 rpm. 20.9 psi.

Billet 6765 air cooled bb, S cover.
1st pull = 429 hp @ 5110 rpm / 448.6 tq @ 4847 rpm. 20 psi.



And for the record, I'm not a billet wheel hater either.
Have many PTE products on both my cars, and looking forward to pte ball bearing turbos for both of my cars in the near future.

Just want the most torque possible being as they're both street cars......
Do NOT want to give up midrange torque that makes the cars a blast on the street for more power up top for a car that will rarely or never see a track.
Would it be better to stay with cast wheels for someone in my situation??

I was ready to convert to billet dbb for spoolup alone, but if it means loosing torque very confused now

Regarding the cast 6765 vs the billet 6765
The second pull with the cast was in really good tune when it made 452.

The pull with the billet 67 at 20 psi was really really fat since we had to add alot of fuel in the chip with the cast 67 and we didn't take the fuel back out before we did the dyno run we just increased the boost to lean the car out.

What i noticed the most when taking both turbos on the street is spoolup is much faster with the billet than the cast.

Anyways.. the car could've made 1 hp more and i would have still been happy, it was a truly great experience.

 

[gnloyalty877]

:
Also... Was there any A/F recording??

K.

Keith, I had my wideband recording on my powerlogger and the reading was 11.1 with the billet when it made 482 and 11.0 with the cast when it made 452.

 

[NCTURBOS]

Keith, I had my wideband recording on my powerlogger and the reading was 11.1 with the billet when it made 482 and 11.0 with the cast when it made 452.

Hey Tyler,

I didn't even know it was your car... :biggrin: And again not trying to pick apart any person, car, tuner, etc., etc...

So comparing cast pull #2 vs. billet pull #3... 2psi more boost, virtually same A/F, almost 200rpm more on the pull!?!? Apples to apples, or apples to oranges??

Why were the pulls cut short rpm-wise? Or were they?? Your car should have been taken to 5800-6000 easy!! What stator# is your PTC converter??


K.

 

[gnloyalty877]

Keith,

I will have to check which pump# the converter is. When i talked with dusty i just told him i wanted a 3200 nonlockup and thats what i got, so to be honest i don't know what the pump # is. When the car was on the dyno i ran the car to 110 since thats when the test stopped. I have an old transmission in the car that i bought a long time ago so i really don't know what the shift points were set to in it. I have another trans from CK which is in the garage so it should help out too.

Tyler

 

[gnloyalty877]

I just got off the phone with dusty and he said he doesn't number the pumps. All he does is measure the fin angle.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Hey Tyler,

I didn't even know it was your car... :biggrin: And again not trying to pick apart any person, car, tuner, etc., etc...

So comparing cast pull #2 vs. billet pull #3... 2psi more boost, virtually same A/F, almost 200rpm more on the pull!?!? Apples to apples, or apples to oranges??

Why were the pulls cut short rpm-wise? Or were they?? Your car should have been taken to 5800-6000 easy!! What pump# is your PTC converter??


K.

Ha. I'm reading this and Tyler calls so I see what he was wanting to know. I'd have to look at his paperwork to see what stator is in the converter.

I'm not much of a dyno type guy. A stick car can produce good comparison results. Auto's can throw a big curve at you when you throw a converter into the mix. They will couple at different points depending on how quickly the boost comes in and at what rpm the car goes WOT. In the case of Richards dyno, I did see some cars where the engine never fully caught up with the converter before the test was stopped. The converter would flash, then hold the motor at it's flash rpm and the test stopped. In the case of turbo testing, I'd be more interested in the track data than the dyno.

Generally, just putting the car in 3rd and flooring it isn't the best way to dyno a converter car. The boost comes in and the converter is loaded with a 1:1 drive ratio, this flashes the converter higher than it normally would as if the car was launched in 1st gear and accelerated though the rpm range.

 

[NCTURBOS]

Tyler/Dusty,

I guess I meant stator#... :biggrin:

What I'm asking/saying by mentioning the torque converters Dusty stated above!!


PS- I need another one Dusty, and will be calling in the next day or two...


K.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Tyler/Dusty,

I guess I meant stator#... :biggrin:

What I'm asking/saying by mentioning the torque converters Dusty stated above!!


PS- I need another one Dusty, and will be calling in the next day or two...


K.

OK.

This discussion is something Patrick from PTE and I had during the dyno testing. If the turbo does come in quicker, makes more torque at a lower rpm, it will flash the converter higher at an earlier which will lead to some wierd looking dyno data.

Flooring the car in 3rd at 3000rpm is basically equivalent to launching a car in 3rd gear at the track. It places a much higher load on the converter. To really test the turbo's the car would have had to wait until the converter was fully coupled which could have meant as much as 6-7 seconds at 5000rpm which would seem like an eternity on the dyno.

For the guys who do a lot of dyno comparisons we build very, very tight nitrous converters which will flash very little. Try to run this type converter at the track and you won't see much boost until 300 feet out. A good dyno converter is a terrible track converter.

 

[RUQWKNF]

One of the reasons might be because of the lack of RPM... Why were most of the runs only taken to 5k rpm, give or take? All the cars had combinations to go well above that (and still make power), and some of the torque converters aren't even getting efficient yet...??

Really!!

Also... Was there any A/F recording??

Lastly... The Te44 to billet 6265 is barely a fair comparison... I would hope the 6265 would kick its A$$ everywhere, with the proper tune!! I would have liked to have seen either the "old school" Ta61/Te61 or Ta62/Te62 vs the 6265.


K.

For the record, each dyno session had it's own mph / record variables depending on the build. Sure all of the cars could have pulled past 5k, but on Rick and Tylers' cars, the recording were taken from 70mph to 110mph if I remember correctly. Rick's car was very tune hampered with straight 93 octane fuel and trying to keep a very close eye on detonation with the 62 turbo. During the first 3 pulls on Rick's car on Monday, it was discovered that the swing valve/gate was opening prematurely during spoolup. This was caused by the standard spring wastegate that I spec'd on the turbo. We had no way of knowing if he would be able to control his boost perfectly or not, and I didn't want to take the chance of blowing it up due to an overboost condition. So we were taking it easy. I'm sure, if we would have had all day to make tuning corrections with this combination, we would have made alot more power and torque with Rick's combo. Once it was brought to our attention about the gate issue, Rick immediately installed his HD actuator, but due to time constraints, he was not able to retest on Monday. He made only 1 pull on Tuesday and the hp and torque did increase with no other changes made to the car. He talked it over with alot of people and decided to install one of Razor's alky kits so he could take full advantage of the extra hp capabilities of the Billet 6265 turbo.
When Rick and I were deciding on which turbo to go with, we talked about his goals. And knowing, that there were alot of people who were in the exact same scenario as his combo, it was determined that the 6265 would make it alot easier for him to achieve his goals and maintain very nice street manners. Why put a smaller turbo on the car that might only make 5-7 more hp at the same low boost level, when we want to make more once the combo is finalized? (Aka: alky kit installed and alky chip burned for combo) I'm sure Rick was very happy with the turbo once he was able to turn up the wick at the track on alky. But I'm sure he will chime in if need be with his feelings.

With regards to Tylers car, he also made good power without really getting into fine tuning his combo. I'm sure there is alot more power on the table with his combo once he get's it lined out. With a combo like his, not only would I be looking to make more power at a given boost level, but the spool difference between the two turbos to me, would be one of the most important aspects I would be worried about for a street car. And according to Tyler, it was a night and day difference on the street, during his first drive.

Steve's Sullivan's combo, in all fairness to him, he was experiencing some issues, which he was still ironing out. There is alot more power to be made once he gets his combo squared away with his tune.

Derek's car, he actually told me that his combo had been together for 6 years and that he was wanting to freshen up the top end. So with that being said, I'm sure it too will make more power when it's all said and done.

And finally, with regards to Steve Thompson's car, his results are what we are more used to seeing with a larger turbo. I'm sure he will continue to make even more power and go even faster once he has more seat and tuning time with his turbo.



I tried to be as fair and honest as possible when deciding on which cars to test for this dyno challenge. Some of you guys have no idea the amount of time, effort, nor logistics involved that I spent picking these 5 cars out of a ton of entries submitted. I thought we had an excellent mix of real world combinations to test. Very realistic, real world combo's that anyone can duplicate. I also know, I haven't had any of the guys complain, nor want their money back. I can understand some peoples doubts with the results, but to be perfectly honest, I know these results would have been more, if each combo would have had more time for fine tuning.

I can't wait to hear more from the guys, and see more results over the year as more customers take their new turbos out and start running again.
Racing season has just begun fellas.
Thanks for listening, err reading.

Patrick

 

[dentmasters01]

Ok... But it's also common knowlege that the Te45a shines at higher levels, not lower as well...

Also... Derek's car made much higher #'s last year as well, but I'm not too sure on what his boost levels were then.


K.

As patrick stated, i have been on the same motor for over 6 yrs. (thanks RPE)
I beat on it everytime its out. My car has dropped hp over the last 3 yrs. Can't understand why really. It was at almost 600 to the wheels out here, 560 at richards last year and 536 this year. I will say this, after the turbo change this year, it brought it back up to the 560 mark it was at last year. With that said, no one can convince me the turbo wasn't a gain. Still trying to figure out why the power loss though. Oh, one other thing. Since richards, I have found out that I have been running 4 deg. LESS timing than I thought. My BH balancer was off 6 deg. and crank ref. was at 10. Don't know how much 4 deg. timing would give me hp wise, but its been like that for 6 yrs.....:redface:

 

[HighPSI]

Since richards, I have found out that I have been running 4 deg. LESS timing than I thought. My BH balancer was off 6 deg. and crank ref. was at 10. Don't know how much 4 deg. timing would give me hp wise, but its been like that for 6 yrs.....:redface:

This is very common with the BHJ's. I have even seen quite a few stock balancers off. I ALWAYS recommend checking your timing and not just at idle. Good luck with the new turbo.

 

[SGRIM]

I think everyone needs to understand that this wasn't done under ideal conditions for testing. I think for the results that were shown the turbo's are better without question. Every participant were very happy with the results as far as I know...

The bottom line is the turbos perform just as well if not better at lower boost levels as other non billet turbos. The big bonus is you got plenty of room to increase your power with your car without having to buy a new turbo for each new step you take. You can simply keep turning up the boost. Once you hit that 28# range these turbos REALLY start to shine and surpass anything we have seen before...

To me it would be like deciding to buy a fast system for you car. Instead of buying the new xfi you buy a bank to bank new for close to the same price... Sure the bank to bank would suffice for most, but why not go ahead and buy the xfi and be done with it...

Just IMO

 

[Beamer]

I think everyone needs to understand that this wasn't done under ideal conditions for testing. I think for the results that were shown the turbo's are better without question. Every participant were very happy with the results as far as I know...

The bottom line is the turbos perform just as well if not better at lower boost levels as other non billet turbos. The big bonus is you got plenty of room to increase your power with your car without having to buy a new turbo for each new step you take. You can simply keep turning up the boost. Once you hit that 28# range these turbos REALLY start to shine and surpass anything we have seen before...

Just IMO

I did not see that the billets performed as well on all occasions at low boost. They do seem to run better at higher boost, but how many out there are going to run at 28Lbs + of boost? Especially if we are a street car? I am not a billet hater, but do think the price is questionable to a novice tuner to take advantage of where the gains seem to be most achieved. I also think it is awesome for the vendor participation that we had involved for this.

I do not know what would be considered optimal conditions to test. Maybe a calm mild day that the weather did not change at all for a 10 hour period so we could have multiple runs down the track??? What really matters is what conditions changed during each participants sets of pulls.

I wish I could have been there and chosen to participate to get a turbo at such a great price, and to see what kind of numbers I could put down. The only problem with me would be... What would you use to compare against my little PT54? LOL :biggrin:

Thanks for the great info !

Mike


BTW... Thanks Shane for putting this event together. I wish I could have made it !