Dyno #'s running 93 & alchy...Good or bad?

[The Darkside]

I posted this in the alchy forum, but thought I'd post here too...... Anyways, I had my car dyno'd Saturday & would like some opinions on my results & if they should have been better. My combo is listed in my signaure & here's what my setting were:

Boost @25lbs
fuel pressure @ 40 line off
Smc alchy kit w/single nozzle using 100% denatured
turn on point set @15lbs
pump speed @7

Dyno was done with 93 octane with the extender chip (23/31 timing)
Put new NGK UR-5'S gapped @.035 in this morning.

1st pull was 405.98 HP & torque was 416.57 lbs. My air/fuel ratio showed me running a fat @ 10 to 1. My egt gauge showed 1550 degrees. #'s were taken between 4700 & 5600 rpm's. I was definetly running rich, but my fuel pressure is already @ 40 line off.
2nd pull I left all setting the same except to set my extender chip to 4% lean @ wot, but still that only raised my air/fuel to11.75 to 1.
Any help to help me get more HP & torque? Thought about lowering fuel pressure even more or raise it to 45 & lean it out at wot using the extender chip. Maybe try more timing & boost since I saw 0 knock?

Thanks, The Darkside

 

[sixgun86gn]

Alky sucks,plain and simple.You will never get the power that a good race chip and gas will give you.I have tried it and I don't care what some people say.It is a crutch at best and Bill Duke can tell you countless stories of having to fix cars that have been hurt from it.

Put it this way.....My car made 492 rwhp and 495 rwtq saturday at 20# and 29* on 114 with a turbo that is really too small for the motor.Can't push anymore air to get the boost higher.Imagine if I could have gotten it to 25# which would still have been safe.Try that on alky.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Well my opionion strongly differs from sixguns, as alky is not a crutch and if tuned right with no detonation is a very effective way of getting close to the power of race gas. Anyways onto your combo Darkside. I believe the numbers are a bit low, with the ported irons and 61 i would really expect 440 or better on 25 psi, and over 520 trq. I know it was rich, but was there any detonation or timing pulled due to anything false? There is definatly something holding it back a bit. Do you have a dyno chart? does the power fall off or continue to climb? Were the numbers corrected as it was very hot and humid today in Houston if thats where ya are. Nice choice in combo though, i plan on a 61 in the future with a very similar setup

 

[sixgun86gn]

IMHO with his combo 440 would still be low for 25#.I ran a 3.8 with that same chip on pump gas and 16# and made #s just like his on 25# and alky.With a good race timing set on the T+ and some real gas he could easily pull close to if not 500hp.Alky is great for cooling the intake charge,but it does not replace fuel.More air + more FUEL= horsepower.Horsepower comes from burning more fuel not less and more boost like he is set up now.Now if the turbo was past its efficiency range and rally getting the air hot (which it isn't)the alky would have an intercooing effect with more fuel.His combo is built to be efficient at those boost levels and I would bet on pump gas he would pull the same #s as the alky and high boost.Ask me how I know.

 

[slipstick]

2nd run egt and performance numbers

Darkside, I'm very curious how much difference - especially egt - the 4% lean adjustment made in your dyno numbers?

 

[turbo buicks]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Alky sucks,plain and simple.

ya it sucks so bad my friend razor ran 11.24 @ 122 on it with pump gas, no kr, and a 67 turbo. too bad we cant all fill up at the invisible race gas pumps you have the privilege of going to.

 

[TurboSlacker]

Ya alky sucked for me too...only got 550RWTQ

 

[The Darkside]

JDSfastGN, I didn't see any knock on the scanmaster & power peaked @ around 5250 rpm's & then went down to around 350 hp by 5600 rpm's.

slipstick, EGT's were about the same as I recall.

sixgun86gn, I didn't really expect to see the same #'s as I race gas might provide, I really just wanted to see if the #'s I got were as good as they could have been. I definetly believe I have more HP & torque w/ the alchy, but running air/fuel ratio's of 10 or 11 to 1, I just need some more tuning help to get there.


The Darkside

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Alky sucks,plain and simple.You will never get the power that a good race chip and gas will give you.I have tried it and I don't care what some people say.It is a crutch at best and Bill Duke can tell you countless stories of having to fix cars that have been hurt from it.

Put it this way.....My car made 492 rwhp and 495 rwtq saturday at 20# and 29* on 114 with a turbo that is really too small for the motor.Can't push anymore air to get the boost higher.Imagine if I could have gotten it to 25# which would still have been safe.Try that on alky.

Buwahahaha. BALONEY

11.227 at 24 PSI in a 3800 lb car this past saturday in the heat. I made 608TQ at 3600 rpms when I was running 12.0's.

Ya like apples??

Tell Geno his 10.15 at 136 with 92 octane SUCKS. How bout them apples.

Dont throw the concept under the bridge.. when your mis-informed.

Last thing for yer eyes to see...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138331

Ohh see it works with C16 too.. go figure.

Hey a windshield washer pump out of the junkyard can make you an alky kit.. does it mean they all function the same..

PS.. Honda made a pewny 4cyl motor in the 80's.. 13.5:1 compression.. 60 PSI boost.. it made 1600+HP on guess what fuel.. no not C16.. methanol. Motor was used in the F1 cars.

Faster on alky than race gas...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136830

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by The Darkside
JDSfastGN, I didn't see any knock on the scanmaster & power peaked @ around 5250 rpm's & then went down to around 350 hp by 5600 rpm's.

The Darkside

I'd look into valve springs, do a leakdown test, clogged/restrictive exhuast, way too much fuel. No reason the numbers should be this low unless something is out of kilter.

Boost is a restriction. Put a banana in the tail pipe you'll hit 60 PSI. So the 25 may be inflated by a restriction, or issue with the cylinders.. or???

Put it on the track see how much it picks up from 1/8-1/4. That will give you an indication whats happening as well. It should pickup 22-23. Any less there is an issue.

I had a transbrake cuase me to lose 5 MPH on the top. Only way I realized it was recording the runs, playing them back and seeing at 104-106 it would hit a wall accel.

Too many variables in this thread to make sense of. Not enough real data. Sorry but not enough data.

 

[turbo buicks]

Originally posted by Razor
Put a banana in the tail pipe you'll hit 60 PSI.

i tried that and it just fell out.

 

[sixgun86gn]

Originally posted by Razor
Buwahahaha. BALONEY

11.227 at 24 PSI in a 3800 lb car this past saturday in the heat. I made 608TQ at 3600 rpms when I was running 12.0's.

Ya like apples??

Tell Geno his 10.15 at 136 with 92 octane SUCKS. How bout them apples.

Dont throw the concept under the bridge.. when your mis-informed.

Last thing for yer eyes to see...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138331

Ohh see it works with C16 too.. go figure.

Hey a windshield washer pump out of the junkyard can make you an alky kit.. does it mean they all function the same..

PS.. Honda made a pewny 4cyl motor in the 80's.. 13.5:1 compression.. 60 PSI boost.. it made 1600+HP on guess what fuel.. no not C16.. methanol. Motor was used in the F1 cars.

Faster on alky than race gas...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136830

Yep I geuss you didnt see the sig.I would bet my 1/8 mile on straight 93@16# is as good or better than yours with the boost turned up and with a SMALLER turbo.Now let me get 24# on it and we'll see if your wimpy alcohol motor can hang.

I said it works great for cooling the intake charge but it does not replace fuel....period.

Funny how everyone here laughing about alky is SLOWER than me.

 

[sixgun86gn]

Oh and BTW I doon't care what your torque was on the dyno for a split second peak.What did it pull AVERAGE across the board?...Yep thought so.I would still drag that heiny.

I think Geno's car could have run that without alky too because everybody is scared to push a pump gas motor too hard because they think it cant take it.

Have fun hawking your alky kit.

 

[turbo2nr]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Yep I geuss you didnt see the sig.I would bet my 1/8 mile on straight 93@16# is as good or better than yours with the boost turned up and with a SMALLER turbo.Now let me get 24# on it and we'll see if your wimpy alcohol motor can hang.

I said it works great for cooling the intake charge but it does not replace fuel....period.

Funny how everyone here laughing about alky is SLOWER than me.

alchohol, or methanol is a fuel! What books are you reading? I run methanol and 116, I love it.

 

[sixgun86gn]

GEEEEEZ! You must be driving a jet then!To need all that FUEL. Sorry bud the 116 is doing all the work.

 

[Louie L.]

One thing that I did notice was that he went from 10.0 to 1 AF took 4% out and droppped to 11.75 to 1. Thats a huge drop in AF with just 1 click of the dial. Be careful with that! I like 11.5 or even richer at 25 psi. Many head gaskets behind my preferences .

 

[JDSfastGN]

sixgun how can you even compare your combo to anybody else posting here? You have freakin 83s, a 63 and a fully built 4.1 motor, of course its gonna run as fast or faster than our setups, it flows more air and makes more power on less boost. Boost is only a restriction as stated before. I'm pretty sure Julio is on stock heads and stuff (i could be wrong). If somebody on alky pulled you on the street or the track while you were on 16 psi and 93, and they were on 93 and alky would you make excuses? Nobody here said that it was a replacement for race gas, but most of ours are street cars. If i can put alky on and tune it down to run 117 in street trim, i would be a lot happier than the 112-113 it traps now on only 17 psi.

 

[Sleeper-6]

Darkside, I think something's up with your car. I have a similar combo, without that sweet IC you have. I managed to lay down 350 hp/430 ft lbs at the wheels in the mid-summer Texas heat in full street trim @17psi. The Hp was still climbing but we shut it down at 5200 since I was 1500+ miles from home.

Sixgun, Yeah.........Ummm...........I'm with Razor. Methanol is a fuel. A high octane fuel that has the added benifit of cooling the intake charge down as it is introduced.

 

[Louster38]

Louie Lopez, my name is Louie Lettenmair. Seeing "Louie L." there on the side was crazy, I didn't know of any other Louie L's until now.

 

[sixgun86gn]

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
sixgun how can you even compare your combo to anybody else posting here? You have freakin 83s, a 63 and a fully built 4.1 motor, of course its gonna run as fast or faster than our setups, it flows more air and makes more power on less boost. Boost is only a restriction as stated before. I'm pretty sure Julio is on stock heads and stuff (i could be wrong). If somebody on alky pulled you on the street or the track while you were on 16 psi and 93, and they were on 93 and alky would you make excuses? Nobody here said that it was a replacement for race gas, but most of ours are street cars. If i can put alky on and tune it down to run 117 in street trim, i would be a lot happier than the 112-113 it traps now on only 17 psi.

If you read I was comparing to my old 3.8.The combo was 50#ers,ported heads and intake (which I see you also have)206/206 hyd flat tappet cam and the 63,oh and a NA crank.Not too far from his combo,wouldn't you say?Same chip too because I had Alky and took the crap off and went faster.I pulled over 400hp/400 tq on 16# and 93 no alky that way.I think Darkside could too.NOW,if he were to bump the FP back up to 45# and take the boost up higher the added cooling from the alky would help.BUT still not the same power as raising the timing too and running the right octane.

As far as my 4.1 being "fully built".I put the shortblock together for $600 with all used parts except for bearings,cam,timing chain,and main studs.Hows that grab you.For just a few bucks more than an alky kit.The ONLY reason for the 83s is that i ordered them for a TA aluminum motor that is being built for me by Nick Micale and I decided to try them out and they work great.The cam is still a flat tappet hydraulic too.Funny it runs darn near the same times too,albeit with just a few pounds less boost and probably the same airflow.Must flow awfully good.I can crank the wastegate to my hearts desire and it still wont get past 20# for some reason.I would guess that 67 could do it.

My basic reason for disliking alky is too many try to use it for the wrong reasons (I.E. to replace high octane fuel) and try to run ridiculously low FP and hurt their car.Then they come crying to someone like me to replace their headgaskets.Get it now?I admit the stuff has its uses,but i am not at the point that i think it will help my combo on race gas.Using it with race gas to control IAT is a great idea,but to replace octane is kind of asking for trouble.To me there is no replacement for a properly built combo made to run efficient.