Dyno #'s running 93 & alchy...Good or bad?

[jdsgnx]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Alky sucks,plain and simple.You will never get the power that a good race chip and gas will give you.I have tried it and I don't care what some people say.It is a crutch at best and Bill Duke can tell you countless stories of having to fix cars that have been hurt from it.

Put it this way.....My car made 492 rwhp and 495 rwtq saturday at 20# and 29* on 114 with a turbo that is really too small for the motor.Can't push anymore air to get the boost higher.Imagine if I could have gotten it to 25# which would still have been safe.Try that on alky.

HOW CAN YOU MAKE SUCH A S****D statement!!!!!!!!!!!

you may of tried it but dont knock what you know nothing about, keep spending your money on race gas, to each his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sixgun86gn]

Originally posted by jdsgnx
HOW CAN YOU MAKE SUCH A S****D statement!!!!!!!!!!!

you may of tried it but dont knock what you know nothing about, keep spending your money on race gas, to each his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep...slower than me too.I guess I know more than you?You will spend money on HG's and possibly a rebuild which is much more expensive than $30 of the good stuff.

 

[Sleeper-6]

Race gas is not an option for all of us!!!

I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm willing to bet that running race gas all the time is not an option.

My car is a STREET car that happens to see some track time to check my progress.

The nearest place to get Race gas for me is a half tank round trip. There's no point in driving 45 minuetes to fill up with $50-$75 in race gas just to burn $15 of it getting home. (Keeping jugs or drums of race fuel around is just not an option for me.) Not to mention I could easely burn the rest of it crusing around on a nice weekend. If I were full of race gas all that expensive octane is going to waste and eating up my O2 sensor for what? Pushing me down the road at 50 mph on 0 boost? I'd much rather burn up some $2 a gallon premium and Methanol ON DEMAND for $2-3 a gallon than $7 a gallon Sunoco Maximal ALL the time.
I can't see the point in running 25 psi to nail some nice times at the track then having to detune for the other 90% of the time on the street. It kinda stinks to have to tell someone "Yeah it's gone 11.xxx but I can only go 12.5 on pump gas. "

On that note, I'm going to go Take the GN out for a cruise and blow off some steam. (for $2 a gallon!)

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
If you read I was comparing to my old 3.8.The combo was 50#ers,ported heads and intake (which I see you also have)206/206 hyd flat tappet cam and the 63,oh and a NA crank.Not too far from his combo,wouldn't you say?Same chip too because I had Alky and took the crap off and went faster.I pulled over 400hp/400 tq on 16# and 93 no alky that way.I think Darkside could too.NOW,if he were to bump the FP back up to 45# and take the boost up higher the added cooling from the alky would help.BUT still not the same power as raising the timing too and running the right octane.

As far as my 4.1 being "fully built".I put the shortblock together for $600 with all used parts except for bearings,cam,timing chain,and main studs.Hows that grab you.For just a few bucks more than an alky kit.The ONLY reason for the 83s is that i ordered them for a TA aluminum motor that is being built for me by Nick Micale and I decided to try them out and they work great.The cam is still a flat tappet hydraulic too.Funny it runs darn near the same times too,albeit with just a few pounds less boost and probably the same airflow.Must flow awfully good.I can crank the wastegate to my hearts desire and it still wont get past 20# for some reason.I would guess that 67 could do it.

My basic reason for disliking alky is too many try to use it for the wrong reasons (I.E. to replace high octane fuel) and try to run ridiculously low FP and hurt their car.Then they come crying to someone like me to replace their headgaskets.Get it now?I admit the stuff has its uses,but i am not at the point that i think it will help my combo on race gas.Using it with race gas to control IAT is a great idea,but to replace octane is kind of asking for trouble.To me there is no replacement for a properly built combo made to run efficient.

what were your time and numbers with the 3.8 and 50s? Just wanna see how my 44 combo stacks up Again i don't think that anybody is saying that alky completely replaces race gas as it doesn't, but alky will up the octane to close to 107-8 and along with the cooling effect it requires less octane to run the same boost levels. I agree that if your really gonna push it on high boost and timing that race gas is a better call, but there are too many people in this thread alone that have not blown headgaskets or there motors due to running alky. I don't even have it and can admit that for a street car looking for a big gain in performance and for the weekend racer/daily car like mine i get tired of paying 40$ for race gas every time. After a few trips it starts to pay for itself. Anyways, yes your build is impressive for the price and we all have our ways of going about getting the most power out of our combos and some like me with a small turbo would really benifit with alky on the street and the track, as i hardly run enough boost or timing to even utilize the 112 i put in the tank. (23 psi is my max so far with 23 * timing in 1-2 and 21 in 3rd)

 

[sixgun86gn]

The 3.8 on pump gas only ran consistent 7.5s in the 1/8 and on race gas with 23# ran consistent 7.0s @99 mph.Full weight and no less than 1/2 tank of fuel.Best ever with that combo was 6.91 @ 100. 60' times were consistent at 1.65,except on the 6.9 pass.Sorry 1/4 mile tracks are hard to come by around here.Closest one is in Ennis and they won't let me run.(no roll bar)

I never said to run race gas all the time to anybody here.Sorry if thier combo sucks on pump gas and they want to run out of thier league.Everybody here on alky would get thier clock cleaned if they ran up on me and all I had was straight 93,so I am not worried about that.Yes alky can work and make more power than straight pump if tuned right.BUT never the same power as real octane.Methanol is different from what I am talking about.I have been referring to denatured alcohol as that is most common.Just to make things more clear.


Oh forgot the dyno #s 420hp 440tq on 93 only.Never dynoed it in race trim.

I imagine this 4.1 would do much better than the 495tq/492hp if I could get to 25# like I wanted.

 

[Razor]

83#s,double pumper,hotwire,AFPR,70mm TB&plenum,RJC powerplate,Big mouth,P&P intake&heads,comp 218/218,PTE FM,TE63,ATR 3" DP,Test pipe,ATR 3" SS cat back,3200 vigilante converter,stage right,B&M shift kit ,ZO6 maf & T+,ATR headers,Extender chip,eaton posi,30 spline Mosers,SSM bars

Look at the list of mods.. there's a gazzillion bucks there.

100% Stock suspension, 210/205 cam(small), walbro 307, small shaft turbo, no trans brake, stock headers, small IC, 58 mm tb,

I ran 11.40 on a bone stock IC, ran 11.24 on 50 lb injectors,

Boy if I had your mods.. Do a compare.. bet your car doesnt weigh 3800 lbs either. And that 63 is a large shaft turbo rite?

Did I also see its a 4.1 not a 3.8.

I'm doing 10 times more with less. That is the point you fail to see.

Do what you want, my ET's are current, and backed up.

Bring it to the Buick event at Reynolds Nov 5,6 .. i'll show you some tail lights.

On straight pump gas

 

[sixgun86gn]

Re-read before you put your foot in your mouth.

Even better,you come to Noble and I will let you fill my car with 93 pump and you can jack that boost on up.Then I will proceed to drag your ass.All on 16#.My e.t. may or may not be current come and find out saturday in Noble.... Junior.Come and get DRUUUUUUUUG!

And yes it does wiegh 3800#,how did you know.Power everything too.More power than you too.

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
My basic reason for disliking alky is too many try to use it for the wrong reasons (I.E. to replace high octane fuel) and try to run ridiculously low FP and hurt their car.Then they come crying to someone like me to replace their headgaskets.Get it now?I admit the stuff has its uses,but i am not at the point that i think it will help my combo on race gas.Using it with race gas to control IAT is a great idea,but to replace octane is kind of asking for trouble.To me there is no replacement for a properly built combo made to run efficient.

There is the bad info again. I run 43 lbs static. And there is no replacement for a properly tuned motor. Something you couldnt do on alky. So becuase "you" couldnt do it.. then it must not be possible



Even a simple DIY kit set on minimum will produce an easy 15-20 HP and 20 ft lbs of torque. Due to the oxygen content in the alcohol. No other chnages.

Believe what ya will.

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
Come and get DRUUUUUUUUG!

Not by you.

Look Ga is close.. come get sum.. And start putting the seats, braces, sway bars, and the all the stuff you took out on that downhill 1000 foot track you race at..

I cant wait to see that 2 second reaction time too...

On street tires.. come-n-get it.

 

[sixgun86gn]

BS!

Did you not read in his first post that he was running 25# of boost with only 40# of FP?He is on the verge of a hurt motor and you make excuses.OH NO it cant be the alcohol trying to replace the fuel which makes more power.Has to be valvesprings or something else!Keep fighting to make that money.I see you .

 

[sixgun86gn]

No 2 second reaction here.I get staged and dont build my boost until the lights start dropping.Then you get to chase.BWAHAHAHAHA


Sucker.Ever see a 1.41 60' in that turd?HEHEHEHE.Better start practicing launching REAL hard!

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
BS!

Did you not read in his first post that he was running 25# of boost with only 40# of FP?He is on the verge of a hurt motor and you make excuses.OH NO it cant be the alcohol trying to replace the fuel which makes more power.Has to be valvesprings or something else!Keep fighting to make that money.I see you .

Not my kit.. how am I fighting to make money.

40 PSI fuel pressure.. whats the problem? Stock GN came with 37 PSI.. If the chip injector duty cycle commands enough fuel.. so what. Shows how much you know.

If it aint knocking his alcohol is doing the job. Whether the motor makes power or not.. is why he's asking for help. Something you have no clue or idea about except say "Alky is BAD". While his power is low, typically is due to an overly rich condition. But other factors come into play. Like timing, and general condition of motor.

There was no recording of the car on the Dyno, there is no track time to correllate the power loss, its a lot of guessing.

Guys that make chips rely on information to make educated guesses as to what's next when making changes. They cant rely on the scanmaster "says". cuase then you get a guess.. not an educated one.

The Darkside, drop the boost and get some real data. Without it.. its all guesses that are a waste of time. Track numbers/direct scan recordings/etc.. Unless you have data.. no good direction can come from it. Been there dun that.

sixgun86gn, 1.41 on street tires... ha ha ha.. ohh yeah its a track car with slicks.. Keep your C16 in it.. enjoy the ride. I'll be driving my car to Reynolds, as a real street car would. And running it on street tires. On Amoco premium..

You'd get spanked so bad on the street ya couldnt sit down for a week.

 

[JDSfastGN]

wow im gonna go pop some popcorn and keep watching this thread lol. sixgun, his fuel pressure has nothing to do much of anything, as is EGTs and 02s show a rich overly fuel condition. 40#s doesn't mean a lot with out knowing what the injectors are pumping out duty cycle wise. The car is rich and will make power. In a back to back test with the same timing and boost levels with no knock the car should make almost identical numbers on c16 or alky(as long as its an alky chip). The main advantage is that the C16 will allow higher boost and timing if you are looking at pushing the combo to the limit, but most of us are not willing to lose a motor to see if they can push the car to the absolute limit C16 or not.

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn

Put it this way.....My car made 492 rwhp and 495 rwtq saturday at 20# and 29* on 114

yup the bad advice.. 29* timing.. who runs that except those that like changing head gaskets.

Lite that bottle rocket.. be happy you run 1/8 mile tracks.. that sucker would go POOF past the 1000 foot mark. Get them intake temps up with high timing...

High timing + high boost= BAD reliability

POOF

 

[The Darkside]

Wow, look what I started...lol.
Anyways, I'd like to add that the extender chip I have was bought when I was still running a TE44, stock cam & heads, plus stock tranny & convertor. Of course I've added the GT61, 204/214 cam ported/polished heads & a mike Kurtz tranny w/ a 9-11 3400 stall. Now what I'm wondering is I never had the chip upgraded for these new mods, so could that possibly be part of my problem? And/OR.... I seem to be able to pump plenty of fuel as I'm running rich, but not enough air even at 25lbs of boost. Could a dirty intercooler or a dirty K&N contribute to the lack of air I need?

The Darkside

 

[Grandnat]

Originally posted by Razor
yup the bad advice.. 29* timing.. who runs that except those that like changing head gaskets.

Lite that bottle rocket.. be happy you run 1/8 mile tracks.. that sucker would go POOF past the 1000 foot mark. Get them intake temps up with high timing...

High timing + high boost= BAD reliability

POOF

since when is 20 psi high boost???

BTW :
100% Stock suspension not even an airbag, 212/212 cam(flat tappet), single 340, small shaft turbo PT54!!, no trans brake, stock headers, ,non ported stock tb, stock displacement


and the car weighs 3700# with me in it... leather baby

= faster than you on pump gas and...no alky


don't believe me? come to noble and see for yourself

there is a small # of us pump gas guys showing that you can haul ass on pump gas.

for Noble I will be running 114 and shooting for some real times,

but I will be happy to drain the tank let you fill it with 93 and we can line 'em up.

 

[Grandnat]

sorry I could'nt resist.. when I see a good pissing match I have to throw in my 2 cents.

plus I have to stick up for my boy sixgun.


p.s. and yes I have tried alky (although admitantly a pretty crappy kit)
I didn't like it... it was just something else you have to refill.... hell that''s why I went to a turbo in the first place, no need to refill a turbo!!)

 

[turbo2nr]

Originally posted by sixgun86gn
GEEEEEZ! You must be driving a jet then!To need all that FUEL. Sorry bud the 116 is doing all the work.

116 and methanol is awsome. yes it is, yes it is, yes it is. I will keep my head gaskets where they belong. The only knock I will ever get is an insurance salesman at my door. Methanol and pump is sweet also. 26psi on pump gas. What else could you ask for?

 

[bruce]

Not to confuse anyone, with something as simple as the facts, but you might read up on combustion theory so that folks are knowledgeble in what they talk about.

In a nutshell there are two phases to the combustion process. One being the disassociative, and then the reassociation. In the first part the elements of the liquid elements are breaking down, then in the later reassociating and releasing energy. In the first part, (just to make it easy, to explain briefly), we'll use water. In the case of water, the H2O, breaks down into H2, and O. Hydrogen and oxygen. Just like the best of the rocket fuels. IN the case of Alky there is just some C in the equation.

Misusing Alky, or water, will generate problems, just as misusing timing, and fuel.

Considering all the later Fighter Aircraft, in WWII used water injection, I'd doubt that it was actually a bandaid. A quick google for NACA, and In Cylinder Cooling would be advisable for those that like to run on fact rather then opinion. Also, at DIY-EFI Rober Harris posted about the actual combustion process.

In some classes, were Intercooling isn't allowed, WI is the only answer to making HP. Try visiting a tractor pull, and take a look at what they run for WI. If you watch when a puller stages, you'll note how they generate an exhaust plume, of black smoke, then as the Revs come up, at some time, the smoke gets lighter in color, that lightness in color is due to the WI. Not at all uncommon to use 2+ qts in a 15 sec run on a small puller.
Try, running 60 PSI, without intercooling, and tell me how *not* effective WI is.

BTW, the early 707s (full payload) also used 700 gals at take off, to keep the turbine temps in line.
Even if you want to ignore the fuel content of it, there is still the matter of better EGT management.

The Reader is advised to do their own research, and develope their own informed opinion based on facts.

 

[Mark]

The last time I was at the dyno the first couple pulls were in the 350rwhp range. I checked the log and the TPS voltage was in the 3.80 range. He didn't have it to the floor