E85 and Alky, working together to eliminate intercoolers?

[Adam Connell]

Well I have been thinking... and I generally think outside the box. I am converting over to full e85, and i have been running a 50/50 mix for about a year now no problem. It's also time to upgrade my completely stock intercooler.

Would an an Alky kit work well enough as a chemical intercooler to not require an intercooler anymore? I mean, the more direct the air flow the better, so theoretically eliminating the intercooler would be best. I know methanol turbo cars dont run intercoolers, but could it be possible to eliminate them on our cars as well?

 

[mach.80]

X2?

 

[wilkinshc]

I think it would depend on how much boost you want to run. Back in the day I had a 1978 Z1R TC, for those that do not know what that is. It was a kawaski kz 1000 with a turbocharger. The bike ran 6-8lbs of boost without pinging. Back in the day we ran a 50/50 mix of water and alcohol mixture to get 12-14lbs of boost without pinging. It was a simple setup. We ran a line with a oneway valve set to 5 psi from the intake manifold (pressure side) to the top of a container (with mixture) then a line from the bottom of the container to the intake before the turbo. The valve in the line (pressure side) was so that mixture did not add to the intake until it hit 5lbs of boost. With that setup it add more mixture the higher the boost. With that setup the turbo was sealed so you could add fuel before the turbo.

So I think you can but I would start with a conservative amount of boost and increase until you see detontation.

With a good intercooler & effient turbo design, I am not sure how much more throttle response or lack of turbo lag your are going improve on.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I'd consider doing it if I went E85 with twin nozzle post Meth and pre turbo. I'd imagine if you drown the hell out of the post kit you'd be seeing similar or lower cylinder inlet temps. I'd start the turn on much sooner, like 2-3 psi maybe.

One things for sure, you'd probably gain 3psi of boost by ditching the FMIC and the spool up would be nice.

Though E85 is better at cooling MAT's for blow through carb setups, it's gotta help a bit over regular gas for sure.

Anyone with a Fast could help out on at least the MAT temp difference, you'd need an EGT to help with the overall before and after to really see what the cylinders are doing.

 

[Razor]

Whats wrong with the stock IC on a 12 second car. Or 11 second car with methanol injection?

 

[Grumpy]

Whats wrong with the stock IC on a 12 second car. Or 11 second car with methanol injection?

its to easy

 

[Adam Connell]

Eh nothing is "wrong" with it, but if it doesnt need to be there, then why leave it there? It would remove weight, increase flow, and free up some room up front.

Also, its gunna run me roughly the same money either way for an IC or an alky setup, and I got a feeling Im going to run out of fuel system running e85 so the Alky could possibly get me a little farther on what I already have.

Also, It's a "different" idea around here... and we all know how well "different" goes over on these boards...

 

[Adam Connell]

really guys? No more interest in eliminating weight, eliminating heat soak, freeing up engine space, making performance about as consistent as it could get... those done interest anyone?


Julio, what kind of inlet temp drops to you guys see when the alky is on? I am actually really interested in doing this. It would take me no time at all to put together an up pipe from the turbo to the TB, so Im pretty interested if the alky can lower the IAT reasonably. Since I wont need it for detonation resistance, all I care about is the IATs with the alky.

 

[stickybones]

Give it a try Adam. You basically only need to make a custom pipe to connect the turbo to the throttle body. I'm sure it will work, but will it be better than keeping an intercooler there.....?????

Bruce tried it. Maybe you can expand on it now. Removing the Intercooler

 

[Adam Connell]

exactly what i was thinking! Just add the extra cooling befits of alcohol, the knock resistance of e85, and the potential for extra fuel from the alky. I would more than likely run a dual nozzle kit.

Thanks for the link, I had forgotten about that!

 

[Razor]

really guys? No more interest in eliminating weight, eliminating heat soak, freeing up engine space, making performance about as consistent as it could get... those done interest anyone?


Julio, what kind of inlet temp drops to you guys see when the alky is on? I am actually really interested in doing this. It would take me no time at all to put together an up pipe from the turbo to the TB, so Im pretty interested if the alky can lower the IAT reasonably. Since I wont need it for detonation resistance, all I care about is the IATs with the alky.

I years ago did a test on Cals Stage II car. What I got was a 50% reduction in temps pretty much. But we didnt try shooting a nozzle preturbo :redface:

Simple J shaped pipe from turbo to TB with a couple nozzles. There is a post somehwere in this section about the results.

 

[Adam Connell]

Ok well that does not sound too bad.

Im still on the fence about pre turbo spray. Im waiting to see how this guys project goes and what results he gets. I know it works, but it's the potential for drip after shut off that worries me.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I'd imagine someone could produce that up pipe for us since E85 is starting to take off and will continue too as more states get it.

Not having to buy a $750 to $1k FMIC is a pretty nice side benefit considering the $$ needed to convert to E85. And dumping about 25lbs off the very front of the car can't be that bad at the track.

I was doing the pre turbo, but ran into a lifted head literally on the way to the dyno due to the Weakbro so it's not happening this year since I'm in IL.

 

[Alky V6]

You will need to make up for the loss of intercooling with richer fuel mixtures under boost. Blown alcohol engines without intercooling require tremendously rich mixtures. That then requires tight spark plug gaps and strong ignitions to fire the rich mixtures. Rich mixtures also contaminate the engine oil quicker. But, if engine temps are regularly kept high, as on a street engine, the alcohol and water from blowby should burn off in the oil.

The amount of extra fueling you will need will be tied to just how much boost you plan on running. If you're planning on conservative boost levels, you'll probably be fine. If you plan to try to go crazy with the boost, I would keep the intercooler so you don't have to start running crazy a/f mixtures to make up for the lack of the intercooler.

If you do this, keep us informed. I think we can all learn a little from your experiment.

 

[wilkinshc]

Another questions is this for a track car or a car you are driving around town?

If it is a track car then it would be feasible. For a street car it would not be as good. Because how often are you going to be refilling the alcohol tank? The larger the tank the less you save on weight. Plus how much are you going to spend on alcohol when factoring in that you already have the intercooler? And the intercool is a one cost and cools the air for free. On the Z1rtc, it did not have an intercooler to start with and adding the alcohol setup was alot easier and on the bike it used less alcohol then the GN will use.



Just trying to cover all the bases.

 

[mach.80]

Another questions is this for a track car or a car you are driving around town?

If it is a track car then it would be feasible. For a street car it would not be as good. Because how often are you going to be refilling the alcohol tank? The larger the tank the less you save on weight. Plus how much are you going to spend on alcohol when factoring in that you already have the intercooler? And the intercool is a one cost and cools the air for free. On the Z1rtc, it did not have an intercooler to start with and adding the alcohol setup was alot easier and on the bike it used less alcohol then the GN will use.



Just trying to cover all the bases.

If it is a street car. What if you use it 4 times a month? It still might be worth it.
I think a Daily Driver is out of the question.

 

[wilkinshc]

If it is a street car. What if you use it 4 times a month? It still might be worth it.
I think a Daily Driver is out of the question.

It still would not be worth getting rid of the intercooler and switching over to a setup like he is talking about.

If you drive like the average buick driver, you will be into the boost daily even if not racing.

 

[Adam Connell]

Ya this thing is NOT a daily driver. I did that for about 6 months and got tired of washing it!

Also, your idea of "worth it" and my idea are more than likely two completely different things. When I go "driving" I go driving... I dont mind putting a little Alky in the tank.

Also this is not going to use any more alky than a regular alky setup. The e85 is doing most of the cooling and detonation resistance, the alky would just be to cool the charge like normal and add a little extra fuel up top like normal.

E85 or Alcohol engines are a whole new beast, and many things do not apply that apply to the tuning of gasoline engines. Alcohol has many different properties, like Don pointed out.

Monster truck season is about to start, so if I try this it will more than likely be next spring once my season is over.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I've posts from 3 and 4 nozzle Diesel's out there and I'm sure hitting 300 degrees of inlet charge with 45gph of straight Meth would put a hurting on that charge temperature.

Currently there is a DSM running intercoolerless with Pre and Postturbo and he was seeing around 120 degree inlet temps at the very end of the track. He had a 15gph post turbo nozzle and 2gph pre so there's room here to make it work with at least a twin of straight Meth and E85.

Hey Julio, you got a way to run 3 nozzles Progressive style.

Wait, didn't you have a quad nozzle SRT4 customer?

 

[Alky V6]

One, two and now talk of 3 nozzles. You guys just need to bite the bullet and switch over to burning pure methanol. You're working towards that anyway.