e85

[GNVYUS 1]

Firebird and UNGN have some great points.

Firebird is right on how they have not yet maxed out the compression ratio to use the E85. And in not doing so are losing gas mileage because of it.
Think of it, you can probably run 15:1 with E85 which would need less rpm to move your car 45mph. Instead, we have the 9:1 flexible fuel cars that are not making use of the 105 octane E85 due to the majority of gas buyers using 87 octane when they switch over to gas.

But, the fact that E85 has 40% less BTU's, is still an issue. When you do kick up the compression to say 15:1, that means you are going to need even more E85 than those cars are using now. The power will go up, but so will the E85 comsumption. It might be a wash on the gas mileage gain when you do kick up the compression, I doubt it, but I am not an engineer.

Around here there are a lot of E85 stations, and the fuel was around $2.15 last I checked. But you need 40% more, which means that it is really $3.01.
I get 110 unleaded for $3.99 here.

 

[wagon]

My opinion is that they are making FFVs so that they can start putting the E85 at gas stations and actually have some customers. You can't exactly put out cars that only run on E85, and immediately have a network of refueling stations to support them coast to coast. It just isn't possible, but if you can have vehicles that run both, then you can start having stations that carry both, and get a network of stations so that you can eventually support E85 only vehicles that will be competitive. It will make the transition easier. Eventually stations will carry both. Just like they now carry several grades of unleaded and they also have diesel. Now what the government has to do is subsidize it enough so that it is cheaper to run, and start forcing stations to carry it, or give them incentives to carry it. Get the network in place, and get the manufacturers to produce cars that maiximize the benefits......................ah, you guys get the picture.

 

[Pablo]

Firebird and UNGN have some great points.

Firebird is right on how they have not yet maxed out the compression ratio to use the E85. And in not doing so are losing gas mileage because of it.
Think of it, you can probably run 15:1 with E85 which would need less rpm to move your car 45mph. Instead, we have the 9:1 flexible fuel cars that are not making use of the 105 octane E85 due to the majority of gas buyers using 87 octane when they switch over to gas.

But, the fact that E85 has 40% less BTU's, is still an issue. When you do kick up the compression to say 15:1, that means you are going to need even more E85 than those cars are using now. The power will go up, but so will the E85 comsumption. It might be a wash on the gas mileage gain when you do kick up the compression, I doubt it, but I am not an engineer.

Around here there are a lot of E85 stations, and the fuel was around $2.15 last I checked. But you need 40% more, which means that it is really $3.01.
I get 110 unleaded for $3.99 here.

man you are way off, you dont need 40% more of it, none of the current crop of ffv's are anywhere near that, most are at around 25% more and the newer ones are down in the 7-15% range, like i said above, saab is allready producing a car that gets better mileage on e85 than it does on gasoline

explain to me how the mileage issue will be a wash with higher cr, as saab has demonstrated it will increase mileage when you increase the dynamic CR

I have to run but ill be back in a bit to reply to these other posts

btw ungn, theres a good chance you still fill up with "gasohol" thousands of gas stations around the country run a 10% blend of ethanol allready to boost octane. Seems like every other one around here, and in socal theres no farming industry pushing ethanol.

 

[Pablo]

E85 currently has two things going for it. Governments are mandating it for "cleaner air" and since gasoline additives pay no road taxes, you get a vehicle fuel that only has 15% of the tax of gas.

True, it's a startup trying to get its foot in the door of a 150 year old cabal of oil companies. Even as far back as the 1860s ethanol production was taxed to give oil an advantage because of a powerful oil lobby. Oil built up an infrastructure and customer base that could only grow.

Since the market for E85 is miniscule now, these two forces haven't butted up against each other...yet. But Just like government getting rich off cigarette taxes, if E85 did take off and start to eat into road tax revenues, the government will be there to tax it back into submission, slapping the demand back down.

So you are saying that if e85 gets big, the government would then do something completely unreasonable and tax e85 to the point where it was no longer economically viable? Something that reduces our need to worry about oil from venezuela or the mid east? I think anyone given stewardship over our military like the president and congress would think otherwise. Not to mention by the time e85 got big enough the lobby will have considerable sway in washington. There is broad bipartisan support for ethanol, what-if scenarios can be anything your imagination comes up with. What if an enormous meteorite strikes the earth and kills our crop?

The clean air aspects of E85 are on paper only. An old carbed clunker may put out cleaner emissions (after extensive conversion costs to run E85), but it's still 2 orders of magnitude dirtier than a 2006 model running gas.

New cars have almost zero NOX and CO. Running E85, they still have almost zero.

New cars are pretty clean, but your comparison of an old carbed clunker vs a 2006 model running gas is really neither here nor there, they both currently run gas and soon that 2006 model is going to be an out of tune clunker, give it 20 years... id rather have it out of tune burning e85 than burning gas

Don't get me wrong. E85 can be a great fuel for a turbocharged car and all these ethanol plants will ensure a cheap source of ethanol injection for the lives of our T/R's. I just see E85 have a tough time shedding the negative impression its going to make in the next 5 years.

Over the next 5 years, the owners of the 10 million or so Current E85 compatible cars are going to pull into their local E85 station, fill up their car... and for the next week watch their gas gage drop like a rock.

Then, they will proceed to tell everyone and their brother how much "E85 sucks".

why hasnt this happened allready? All I see is a ton of growth, seems like you are basing your impression of ethanol on what you think other people will think about it rather than what it actually is, all it takes is say a war with Iran, or an embargo on venezuela and you will see that it will be quite economical to use e85 over gasoline.

Think 1980's GM Diesels. If they had made a 4 cylinder turbo Diesel, they would have changed the world. Instead they made a stigma that has required 20 years to erase (and it still isn't erased).

You mean like VW? I coulda sworn they made a bunch of diesels in the 80s, nothing too earth shattering... then again diesel comes from the same place as gasoline

replied in quote

 

[UNGN]

why hasnt this happened allready? All I see is a ton of growth, seems like you are basing your impression of ethanol on what you think other people will think about it rather than what it actually is, all it takes is say a war with Iran, or an embargo on venezuela and you will see that it will be quite economical to use e85 over gasoline.

The "growth" in ethanol is from subsidies and government mandates. When it has to survive on it's own merits is when the rubber will meet the road.

Nobody driving ANY of the current crop of FFV's are going to be disciples of E85, but will actually become the biggest detractors. just watch.

You mean like VW? I coulda sworn they made a bunch of diesels in the 80s, nothing too earth shattering... then again diesel comes from the same place as gasoline

I think you are missing my point. Diesel offers something E85 can't: efficiency.

Diesel has double the BTU's to a gallon vs. ethanol. If GM had put a well engineered 4 cylinder Turbo Diesel into those 80's cars instead of their billion dollar, but half assed effort, WE WOULD ALL BE DRIVING DIESEL PASSENGER CARS and SUV's TODAY. We would be thumbing our nose at OPEC in our 25 mpg 4.0L Diesel Yukons and expiditions.

Instead, the general impression of MOST PEOPLE IN THE US is Diesels are Noisy, slow, smelly and unreliable... Thank you general motors.

Diesel doesn't HAVE to come from the same place as Gasoline. Biodiesel can be grown by farmers, too. Farmers can even use it in their tractors (I'm still trying to figure out how they would use the ethanol)

 

[UNGN]

btw ungn, theres a good chance you still fill up with "gasohol" thousands of gas stations around the country run a 10% blend of ethanol allready to boost octane. Seems like every other one around here, and in socal theres no farming industry pushing ethanol.

Not in Texas. The Pump has to say it contains alcohol and none do (maybe they do in houston or Austin).

That is an Emission/tax dodge. Governments allow it because it slightly better in ozone formation, stations like it because the tax on it is 10% less vs. gasoline so the profit margin may be slightly higher.

I encourage EVERYONE to try gasohol. Compare your mileage with straight gasoline. If your mileage doesn't drop by nearly 10%, I will be shocked. Note that you will be using the same amount of gasoline (opec is happy) and the ethanol is just along for the ride. I'm sure you will enjoy other benifits from the addition of 10% ethanol, but increased fuel mileage will not be one of them.

 

[72firebird]

The "growth" in ethanol is from subsidies and government mandates. When it has to survive on it's own merits is when the rubber will meet the road.

Nobody driving ANY of the current crop of FFV's are going to be disciples of E85, but will actually become the biggest detractors. just watch.




I think you are missing my point. Diesel offers something E85 can't: efficiency.

Diesel has double the BTU's to a gallon vs. ethanol. If GM had put a well engineered 4 cylinder Turbo Diesel into those 80's cars instead of their billion dollar, but half assed effort, WE WOULD ALL BE DRIVING DIESEL PASSENGER CARS and SUV's TODAY. We would be thumbing our nose at OPEC in our 25 mpg 4.0L Diesel Yukons and expiditions.

Instead, the general impression of MOST PEOPLE IN THE US is Diesels are Noisy, slow, smelly and unreliable... Thank you general motors.

Diesel doesn't HAVE to come from the same place as Gasoline. Biodiesel can be grown by farmers, too. Farmers can even use it in their tractors (I'm still trying to figure out how they would use the ethanol)

Well diesels currently polute much more than gasoline engines and that's a HUGE problem. I don't see oil truely as the problem here. We can live around that and make adjustments where they're needed. Global warming is a huge problem that typically is pushed aside to talk about the "oil shortage". I don't think diesel is the way to go but biodiesel is a good option in my opinion for an alternative fuel.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

My badd, I was thinking of straight alcohol being 40%, E85 has 27% less Btu's. I was going to convert my GTO to either straight alky or E85, than decided not too in the end.

Here is the info I have.

1 U.S. Gallon of no. 2 diesel fuel contains 138,000 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of gasoline contains 114,132 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of propane contains 84,500 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of E85 contains 83,263 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of denatured ethanol contains 77,815 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of ethanol contains 76,000 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of methanol contains 56,800 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of compressed natural gas contains 19,800 btu

Ethanol is denatured by adding 5 gallons of gasoline to 100 gallons of ethanol (4.76%), therefore:

Ethanol @ 76,000 btu/gal x 95.24% = 72,382
Gasoline @ 114,132 btu/gal x 4.76 = 5,433
____________________________________________________

Denatured ethanol = 77,815 btu/gallon


E85 is then a blend of denatured ethanol and gasoline, therefore:

Denatured ethanol @ 77,815 btu/gal x 85% = 66,143
Gasoline @114,132 btu/gal x 15% = 17,120
______________________________________________________

E85 = 83,263 btu/gal



I also said it MIGHT be a wash on gas mileage after you kick up compression because that also means you need to kick up the fueling. There are so many variables on gas mileage its just to hard to compare.

 

[UNGN]

Well diesels currently polute much more than gasoline engines and that's a HUGE problem. I don't see oil truely as the problem here. We can live around that and make adjustments where they're needed. Global warming is a huge problem that typically is pushed aside to talk about the "oil shortage". I don't think diesel is the way to go but biodiesel is a good option in my opinion for an alternative fuel.

Diesel "pollute more" is a myth. They have more particulates, but have none of the CO you get from gasoline or even E85. Low Sulfur Diesel (including Biodiesel) has none of the SOx's that Diesels have been blamed for in the past.

If you optimized the 3 engines, a Diesel would make less greenhouse gas than an equivalent gasoline or E85 engine because it is more efficient.

If you burn 1/2 the fuel, you put out roughly 1/2 the CO2.

 

[camaro75racer]

Ok most of what you guys are talking about is way over my head. We do have E85 at the pumps at some of the stations around where i live and it is about $.40 cheaper than 93 octane. What would you have to do to be able to run this in a turbo buick? What all would have to be changed? Could you use it as an additive?

 

[d0n_3d]

hey is there anyone running this E85 in their tanks right now on a daily basis? I have a gas station near me that is selling it and I just talked to a good customer of mine who is running E85 and methanol on a race car setup and he says if I have a Walbro pump in the tank...then there's nothing else to modify in the fuel system. He says it's about 110 octane being 85% alcohol and about 15% 93 octane mixed in. Also says the stoichmetric volume is around 13.7 as opposed to 14.7 so you won't need THAT much more fuel then just running gas...you wouldn't even need to run alcohol injection if this was true??? anyone tried this yet? I know theres alot of talk about it but has anyone tried it yet?

 

[fitz3820]

Diesel "pollute more" is a myth. They have more particulates, but have none of the CO you get from gasoline or even E85. Low Sulfur Diesel (including Biodiesel) has none of the SOx's that Diesels have been blamed for in the past.

If you optimized the 3 engines, a Diesel would make less greenhouse gas than an equivalent gasoline or E85 engine because it is more efficient.

If you burn 1/2 the fuel, you put out roughly 1/2 the CO2.

UNGN is right - hop on a plane and go to Europe - more diesel cars sold than gas and they have particulate filters and are quiet, clean and have tons of torque. Great mileage too. The Chrysler 300 Diesel kicks butt. I wish they sold it here

 

[UNGN]

Also says the stoichmetric volume is around 13.7 as opposed to 14.7 so you won't need THAT much more fuel then just running gas...you wouldn't even need to run alcohol injection if this was true??? anyone tried this yet? I know theres alot of talk about it but has anyone tried it yet?

Don,

13.7 is way off.

here's some commonly accepted A/F's for E85:


E85 stoich 9.765
E85 Max power rich 6.975
E85 Max power lean 8.4687

So you do need THAT much more fuel.

Maybe he was thinking E10?

 

[camaro75racer]

UNGN, what about using it as an additive?

 

[UNGN]

UNGN, what about using it as an additive?

E85 would be a great additive. The only drawback is the 15% gasoline content which can make you a little more nervous about keeping it in a overflow reservoir under your hood.

The widespread availability of E85 should mean cheap ethanol for the rest of us, though.

The reason E85 exists at all is that fuel additives are not taxed. If they sold "E100" (100% ethanol) there would be pressure to make it pay road taxes, rendering it even more uneconomical to use.

Because Ethanol is used as a "gas additive" it pays no road tax on the ethanol in its E85 form, so the road taxes are 85% less per gallon vs. std gasoline.

 

[Nashty]

The "growth" in ethanol is from subsidies and government mandates. When it has to survive on it's own merits is when the rubber will meet the road.

That is SOOOO untrue. I own stock in a midwestern alcohol production facility. Last year I got a nearly 40% ROI.

E85 is way overpriced right now. It could EASILY be under $1.00 / gal. My brother is on the board of directors for the company. I know what it takes to make a gallon of E85.

It will catch on. It doesn't get as bad of mileage as some are suggesting either. I've ran it 50/50 in my NON FFV Geo Metro.

Emissions will likely be the driving force behind it. I'm actually peripherally involved in some legislation that may affect most people here someday.

Want to read a good performance article on it? Go to TurboMustangs and search it out. You'll save big on your race motor, I'll bet you see LOTS more turbo cars running it.

 

[UNGN]

That is SOOOO untrue. I own stock in a midwestern alcohol production facility. Last year I got a nearly 40% ROI.

E85 is way overpriced right now. It could EASILY be under $1.00 / gal. My brother is on the board of directors for the company. I know what it takes to make a gallon of E85.

40% ROI on your stock or the Ethanol plant made 40% ROI on the ethanol they sold without government subsidies?

Big difference.

If they can make ethanol so cheaply, why are they exempt from taxes?

More than likely, with the subsidies removed, they aren't even breaking even.

If they are actually making a 40% profit, it seems to me they should pull their own weight. The evil oil companies have to.

 

[Pablo]

Yes, the thread on turbomustangs.com is what initially got me interested in the subject

1000 e85 horsepower sounds good to me

 

[loki993]

An old carbed clunker may put out cleaner emissions (after extensive conversion costs to run E85), but it's still 2 orders of magnitude dirtier than a 2006 model running gas.

what is the extensive conversion it takes to run E85 in a carbed vehicle? not trying to argue with you or anything, but i was under the impression that all it would take would be a carb adjustment or maybe a jet change, possibly messing with the timing a bit also, am i wrong?

i also would like to know about how to make a current non FF computer controlled car run on E85.

the way i see it, and what some people seem to not get, is its not only about cheaper gas or better fuel economy. its about independance from foreign oil companies. dont you realize this? brazil uses straight ethanol in most of their cars and have COMPLETE energy independance. the foreign oil companies and OPEC have too much control over our economy right now and its not right. they should not be able to reduce production of oil to raise the price and make the market take a dump, they can right now. whay would happen if there was an embargo? wed be screwed and gas would be $7 a gallon, just a guess, its not right. i for one like e85, not for the environmental advantage it may or may not have, our gas cars run pretty clean now and they can be cleaner probally, not because it gets better milage, im ok with the fact it dosnt, my primary concern is giving the foreign oil companies less of my money. id rather give it to hard working american farmers, who need something to grow again that can be profitable. I have no problem paying more for it in the long run either, because the moneys going somewhere good, not stinking rich foreign oil barrons that hae 10 bentleys and can shut us down on a whim if they feel like it. remember you can make ethanol from anything that can be distilled, not just corn. brazil user sugar, it can be made from sawdust!! there is any abundance of places we can go the get the materials for it and it can be made cheaply. ethanol is one of the fuels of the future it has to be, unless you feel comfortable being at the mercy of another country that dosnt really seem to like us very much anyway.

 

[ChrisCairns]

Interesting article. Author sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/