eDIST questions

[VictoryTrans]

My dad just blew a head gasket and he's leaning towards some type of an igniton problem. He was gonna buy a new coil pack and module for a little over $200 dollars and then I started reading about this eDIST. I figured he could sell his DIS-4 box and save the 200 for the coil and module and be pretty close to the price of the eDIST. And since what I read about it was nothing but good, I figure you cant go wrong. I need to get some info to relay to my dad so he knows whats entailed.

I was hoping someone that knew installing this on a GN pretty well could chime in and kinda give a complete rundown on what you need to do to make this work. I know you need 6 LS1 coils and a cam and crank(?) signal. How would you go about doing this??

Also, I was browsing through a Summit catalog, and I saw some Accel Super DIS coil packs, PN ACC-140017, they come in packs of 2 for $35. Would these work?

And also can someone give any tips of any kind, ie. where to mount coils, etc.??? Sorry for all the questions......thanks a bunch

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by VictoryTrans


I was hoping someone that knew installing this on a GN pretty well could chime in and kinda give a complete rundown on what you need to do to make this work. I know you need 6 LS1 coils and a cam and crank(?) signal. How would you go about doing this??

The GN ecm doesn't supply any EST signals at below 400 RPM. The engine just runs of of the ignition module with no ecm intervention during crank and first start.

So the module itself has to stay.

So, you wire in 3, 1K resistors across where the original coils went. Then on the module side use that for you EST signal for the eDist. The side with the 3 connectors on the one wire is power, and the other side is what you want.

Then just a matter of wiring, and setting the switches for the eDist.

With 4 wires per coil the wiring adds up fast. BTW, with a little snippage you can use the late O2 sensor connectors for the coil connector.

If you locate the coils on the valve cover right then you can use the LS1 wires. I have some aftermarket covers, and while close they work.

Over a year and 10K miles on them.
Amazes me more folks don't do this.

 

[10SV6]

Bruce, Tony's dad is running a FAST box.

I've been wondering if by having the FAST converted to use Hall effect crank and cam sensors if the points feed from the FAST box could be used to trigger the eDist. Right now with the FAST box set up for a Buick ignition I'm pretty sure you still need the module.

Hmmmm, there is a crank to run RPM value in the C-com settings.

Craig, Have you got any answers ?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by 10SV6
Bruce, Tony's dad is running a FAST box.

I've been wondering if by having the FAST converted to use Hall effect crank and cam sensors if the points feed from the FAST box could be used to trigger the eDist. Right now with the FAST box set up for a Buick ignition I'm pretty sure you still need the module.

Hmmmm, there is a crank to run RPM value in the C-com settings.

Craig, Have you got any answers ?

The eDist talks FAST just as is, once the FAST is set for reading crank and cam sensors. FAST supplies the EST signal all the time.

 

[VictoryTrans]

Alright guys, I'm startin to get confused here So is everything that Bruce said the same with the FAST system? Also where could we get the resistors?? I'm COMPLETELY lost in all of this electronic stuff and I'm trying to make this as SIMPLE as possible. Any more input on making this simpler would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by VictoryTrans
Alright guys, I'm startin to get confused here So is everything that Bruce said the same with the FAST system? Also where could we get the resistors?? I'm COMPLETELY lost in all of this electronic stuff and I'm trying to make this as SIMPLE as possible. Any more input on making this simpler would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

You gave no clue as to what ecm you were using, I mistakenly thought you were using the oem ecm, so my first post was addressing that.

The eDist with a FAST is just a matter of wiring things up once you set the FAST for the crank cam setup.

No resistors needed for what your doing.

 

[Reggie West]

I was looking in to doing this on Dads stage car too.

I believe you are running a FAST system already. FAST does make an EDist interface box that works with the FAST ECM.

From what I have been told it is a plug and play deal. Price was $400 when I was looking at it.

Info I was told is that all you need is the coils after that.

As far as where to mount them, I was thinking of placing them on the coil pack bracket and running the plug wires from there. It is not that much different than the stock set up.

If you want to get tricky you could weld some sort of bracket on the valve covers and run a shorter plug wire from there. Similar to how the LS1s have them mounted from the factory.

Depends on what you want to do.

Side note: One thing I was told about doing this is that you will increase the rpms on the motor 1000 rpms. Reason being is that you are getting rid of the waste spark the stock CCCI has and going to truly one spark on the combustion stroke and that is it.

If you do it, keep me posted I am curious to see how it works. If we get the manifold taken care of that is the next step on the GN.

 

[TurboTR]

>One thing I was told about doing this is that you will increase the rpms on the motor 1000 rpms. Reason being is that you are getting rid of the waste spark the stock CCCI has and going to truly one spark on the combustion stroke and that is it.

Well since there's only one EST signal line, and that EST signal also has to contain the dwell info in this case, there is no charging advantage really. At 6000 rpm for example there has to be 3 sparks every 10 ms on the v6 and you only get < than 3.3ms max to charge each coil(s). With the mandatory signal downtime between sparks, maybe as much as 1 ms, you actually only get much less than that. Whether it's stock waste spark or converted to coil on plug or not. The limitation here is the single EST signal. If you are seeking a high rpm advantage you might consider a CD ignition, which has ~ 0 coil dwell requirement by design.

TurboTR

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by TurboTR
>One thing I was told about doing this is that you will increase the rpms on the motor 1000 rpms. Reason being is that you are getting rid of the waste spark the stock CCCI has and going to truly one spark on the combustion stroke and that is it.

Well since there's only one EST signal line, and that EST signal also has to contain the dwell info in this case, there is no charging advantage really. At 6000 rpm for example there has to be 3 sparks every 10 ms on the v6 and you only get < than 3.3ms max to charge each coil(s). With the mandatory signal downtime between sparks, maybe as much as 1 ms, you actually only get much less than that. Whether it's stock waste spark or converted to coil on plug or not. The limitation here is the single EST signal. If you are seeking a high rpm advantage you might consider a CD ignition, which has ~ 0 coil dwell requirement by design.

Yes, but since the coils are firing 1/2 as often they run cooler, and the lower temp makes for better conductivity, better coil saturation. In some experimenting I did I was able to run .105" plug gap at up to 17 PSI. So there sure seems to be something going on. Just stating what I've seen and makes sense to me.

I noticed no rpm change at idle when I switched, but the idle was smoother. As well as off idle response.

 

[boostcreep]

According to my notes, someone here on this board made a circuit that changes the single est signal to 3 est signals that overcomes the problem of decreasing dwell at higher rpm's. Does anyone here know how to do this? If you do,please chime in.

Nick

 

[VictoryTrans]

Originally posted by TurboTR
> The limitation here is the single EST signal. If you are seeking a high rpm advantage you might consider a CD ignition, which has ~ 0 coil dwell requirement by design.

TurboTR

The main reason why I told my dad to try the eDIST is because he's been trying to trace alot of popping and blown head gaskets back to faulty coil packs. I read about thie eDIST and read what Bruce said about the .105 gap and no popping. A question I have is, will the eDIST not give you a high RPM advantage over the stock ignition setup? My dad just wants to get rid of the popping and he's tired of buying new coil packs/modules. He'll be shifting the car at 6800 so it wont rev as high as some guys like, but the ignition popping wont let him go past 6000.

Also as I asked before, I saw some Accel Super DIS coils in a Summit catalog for $35 for a set of 2, will these work for this application?

Thanks guys, the info is greatly appreciated

 

[TurboTR]

Well unfortunately it would take more than a simple circuit to get the full dwell time back onto 3 seperate lines. Because the original single EST line would not have that dwell info to begin with. So the new circuit would have to be intelligent to able to predict when to turn on to get the total dwell time right, etc. Doable, but not exactly trivial.

I forgot to ask, is your dad's car running a converted type 2 ignition setup? If it is that's probably all he has to do, change back to the type 1. The type 2 is notorious for doing just what you describe when adapted to the GN's. I think the fault may lie in the conversion or adapter plate actually; like there's a different power feed somehow that the type 1 wiring does not adequately support as wired. I tested my type 2 conversion on a Casper's tester some years ago. Had to backyard it some to make it work, but what I saw was that the further you got from the feed end of the module the weaker the spark was. MUCH weaker. The far coil was very weak, like a glow discharge. Middle coil was somewhere in between good and bad. Swapped coils around, same result- it was position dependent. Mentioned it to Casper's but they were not very interested. Fast forward to last month- dyno testing a FAST customer's Buick. Car had a type 2 ignition and a misfire under load. We quickly changed back over to a type 1 and on the next pull the misfire was gone...

My own car, I still have the stock type 1 ignition on it. It just has an old NAPA coilpack if memory serves. I've run as much as ~ 35 psi boost + a 175 jet of nitrous on top of that and it pulls clean all the way to ~ 7000. Plugs gapped at ~ 0.030". I'm not saying that makes the stock ignition "God" or the only way to go, certainly not the case, but if mine can do that I don't know why your dad's car can't too...

TurboTR

 

[VictoryTrans]

Its a stock Type 1 Ignition, and always has been. The car isnt running extremely lean or anything, and I really cant think of anything else thatll cause the popping, any other ideas? Thanks

 

[Joe Lubrant]

Originally posted by VictoryTrans
Its a stock Type 1 Ignition, and always has been. The car isnt running extremely lean or anything, and I really cant think of anything else thatll cause the popping, any other ideas? Thanks

Have you considered a defective DIS-4??

I have run across 3 so far that act as though they are hitting a rev limiter at 5700 to 6000 and popping. Had them replaced and no problems since. Bamford had a problem with his doing the same thing last year...it was the DIS-4.

Does it also do it with the by-pass plug installed to disable the DIS-4?

I was also told that there are 2 types of DIS-4's one is higher output. The newer higher output one by rumor is short living the coils? Just what I heard.

Just a thought.


Joe

 

[10SV6]

I'll second what Joe said. I had a DIS 4 on my car that acted just like a rev limiter at 6200. When I plugged in the bypass MSD sends with the DIS4, the car pulled clean to 7400.

 

[Reggie West]

There is truth to what is being said about the DIS 4s.

Proper grounding ( actually a fat wire ) will solve it but they are fickle about that.

That is one reason we are going to do the Edist anyways.


By the way, the reason I was told you would see another 1000 rpms by doing the Edist was that once you eliminate the waste spark from the motor it can only help because you are not blowing gases back through the exhaust valve and intake when it fires.

Let me know how it works if you guys do it before I do.

 

[VictoryTrans]

To answer your questions Joe, on the first dyno pull the DIS-4 was hooked up and it started to pop, the second dyno pull my dad put in the by-pass plug, no help. The DIS-4 box we have is the standard one, the HO version came out just after my dad bought it. I really cant think of anything else it could be. Also this past Nov. in Reynolds, the car kept popping, we borrowed a bypass plug from someone, car went 9.59, still slightly popping......the person we borrowed the plug from needed it back, and we were in the middle of a bracket race, so my dad made another pass with the DIS-4 hooked up this time, same amount of popping, and ran a 9.63. Just from this, I'm totally convinced that it has nothing to do with the MSD box, I just dont know what else it could be. Joe, in your expert opinion, is the eDIST a good option for a potential 8 sec car?? Thanks in advance

 

[10SV6]

Have you tried fresh spark plugs ?

 

[Reggie West]

I just thought of something that would cause that.

Change the gap in the spark plugs to .025.

It sounds like you could be blowing out the spark in the cylinders.

I have had that happen to us too.

 

[VictoryTrans]

They are fresh plugs, the gap is at .032.........that seemed like the number that most guys agreed on. Will .025 cause any idle problems?? Thanks

Oh BTW, Reggie, the motor is out of the car right now, so we cant try that right away..........I'll let ya know what happens. Thanks again