ENGINE GURUS: Need advice with diagnosis of excessive valvetrain noise(!)...

[EightSecV6]

Comp will stay fully pumped up which is why you cant run much preload on them, they will keep the valves open on the base of the cam, reread my first post in this thread, we ran into this problem awhile back.
Bill

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

im with ya ....i agree totally but for some reason i thought you were saying the sealed powers pump up ..

were on the same boat except i just wouldnt have them crappy lifters to start with..

 

[J Banning]

At startup (after the car was sitting for 24 hours) the lifters were pretty damn loud. I let it idle for a couple of minutes then went out and drove it. After about 2 miles and one WOT blast through 1st gear I pulled over & popped the hood. By that time they had quieted down substantially.

The engine sure does sound funky at a cold idle though

More testing today... can't wait!!!

-Banning.

 

[frankg]

Bill, where did you find the info on the Comp Cams lifters? Because i had this problem and i never was told this about zero lash. Are all comp Cam lifters zero lash or just certain ones? I even called them and asked what preload they recommend on there lifters and they still didn't tell me that. It does make sense though. I'll have to change my car too and see if it helps my miss at high rpm and boost levels. Thanks Frank

 

[EightSecV6]

Actually Frank, not to sound cocky but.... I found out about the lifters through experience. After FIGHTING this crap on a daily basis and checking EVERYTHING you come accross this stuff.
All Comp lifters are not "zero lash" just the race lifters. You can tell the difference by looking at the plunger retaining clip on the lifter. The race lifter has a heavy duty almost 360deg steel retaining clip (so it doesnt fly apart with no preload on it) and the street lifter has the standard type wire retaining clip that WILL fly apart at high with no preload on it (trust me on that one!) Another tip: if you run the oil pump relief too tight meaning high oil pres at high rpms it will cause / compound the same problem. When we build engines extensive oiling system modifications are done to each of them depending on its use, our clearances are considered by many to be "loose".
Glad I could help,
Bill

 

[frankg]

Thats what i thought. I was just wondering cause i've never read that anywhere. I wonder why CC's doesn't know this or if they do why they don't tell anyone about it. Well thanks for the new info No that doesn't mean your cocky because you know something someone else doesn't yet, i'm sure that's how you've learned most of what you know by someone else's knowledge. I'm always willing to learn and listen that's how i get better. Thanks,Frank

 

[J Banning]

Just got back after making a couple more runs and the car is definately running MUCH better than before. I'm hoping to dial it in on Friday at Cecil and be ready for even more fun on Saturday!!

Thanks to everyone for the help. I appreciate it A LOT. I've been chasing this problem since April/May.

-Banning.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Originally posted by EightSecV6
Actually Frank, not to sound cocky but.... I found out about the lifters through experience. After FIGHTING this crap on a daily basis and checking EVERYTHING you come accross this stuff.
All Comp lifters are not "zero lash" just the race lifters. You can tell the difference by looking at the plunger retaining clip on the lifter. The race lifter has a heavy duty almost 360deg steel retaining clip (so it doesnt fly apart with no preload on it) and the street lifter has the standard type wire retaining clip that WILL fly apart at high with no preload on it (trust me on that one!) Another tip: if you run the oil pump relief too tight meaning high oil pres at high rpms it will cause / compound the same problem. When we build engines extensive oiling system modifications are done to each of them depending on its use, our clearances are considered by many to be "loose".
Glad I could help,
Bill

actually the problem is with both their regular and r series lifters...i have plenty of experience with comp cams stuff.

the regula ones will fly apart after a while at zero lash but will hold you valves open if you put lash on them so it falls back to my thoughts....what good are they????

personally i dont like their lobe design on their cams either...
the only things i do use that say comp on them are rocker arms and their belt drive systems.

 

[EightSecV6]

I've never had any problem out of the street lifters Reds, always worked well for me at .050 or so on the preload, the bleeder/supply hole in them is a different diameter. I personally like Comp Cams stuff, the ramps are fast and noisy but I have gone faster with it than anything else, maybe it's all in the compression/boost levels we run that makes the difference.
Bill

 

[bob86gn]

Thanks for all your help guys. The beast lives!.. I just finished the T&D installation, valve lash and big valve cover installation. I think I have it licked. It is a lot quiter but still sounds a bit like a sewing machine now. The fit of the T&D rockers is perfect. It is kind of weird though. Cylinder 1 and 2 have the rockers adjusted the furthest down. All others appear to be at about the same point except 1 and 2.

 

[J Banning]

Uh... I take back what I said. My problem isn't COMPLETELY fixed. It's better, but still not 100%.

My best ET to date (11.38) was with a 5# launch and 25-26#'s of boost through the traps. I ran a 11.40 today with the same launch and only 22.5#'s of boost. Both runs were with the transmission in Drive. It'll go faster this way instead of when I try to manually shift the car. When I do that it looks like my ET drops about .3 tenths. Leaving it in drive, the trans shifts at 5,350 RPM.

I'll findle with it over the next couple of weeks and post my results. For now though, I need to take a vacation from working on this car

-Banning.

 

[Russ Merritt]

Don't let it bother you so. Mine is loud too. With roller cam and rockers you'd think it would be quiet, wishful thinking. I've had all kinds of people listen to it and they all say it sound good. Mine is louder when it's cold (5-30 amsoil) when it warms up it just sounds "healthy" I'm done worrying, when it breaks I get to build it again. Life is good! I'm gonna look for another block I can put a girdle and 3 billet caps on ( in other words my cushion) Who are you trying to fool, you'll be out there tomorrow screwin with it!

 

[tc86gn]

Should your shift point have more RPM?

Leaving it in drive, the trans shifts at 3,350 RPM.

I was just wondering because mine is at 4300 and I was thinking about going to a 4500 shift point.

 

[J Banning]

Sorry, I made a typo. I've changed it (I meant 5,350).

-Banning.

 

[tc86gn]

Dam! I don't think I will try that.

 

[J Banning]

FYI,
Everything you wanted to know about COMP Cams products - lifters, Camshafts, etc. (all in PDF format):
http://www.compcams.com/products/

865-12: Pro Magnum Hydraulic lifters
Buick V6, 183-252

Tech Tip:
"Pro Magnum Lifters must be installed on an engine with ADJUSTABLE rocer arms and preloaded to .002"-.004". Always set the preload with the engine warmed to normal operating temperato allow for thermal growth.

 

[J Banning]

Thinking back to when I assembled my heads back in March/April, I remember that I had to shim some of the valve springs in order to get the correct installed height (1.70"). Wouldn't this mean that my valve stem heights are uneven? If so, wouldn't this also necessitate that I use either varying length pushrods or adjustable rocker arms? I'll verify the valve stem height tonight with a straightedge and feeler gauge.

Thanks,
-Banning.

 

[ijames]

Off topic, but Banning, was that you on Rt 1 north by Rt 32 about 8:30 PM last night (Monday)? If not, there's someone else with the same paint scheme as your car.

 

[EightSecV6]

check your email Banning, if stem heights are different, it has nothing to do with spring heights.

 

[J Banning]

ijames: Nope, that wasn't me. Cool that someone else has a WH1.

EightSecV6 (and everyone else):
1. Thanks for the email Bill.

2. Valve stem heights...
I pulled the rocker arm shafts and it using a straightedge, it appears that the valves stems are all the same height. (Note: I had a three angle valve job done before I put the heads on the car in the spring. The valves were also back-cut then.)

3. Valve seals...
I noticed that every intake valve seal has come off of it's base! I don't know how long it's been like this, and I never noticed any smoke at startup either. I tried to check for coil bind with a dial indicator & feeler gauge, but the lifters would bleed down so fast that I could get any readings.

I'm running the inner coils that came with the springs I got from PTE. I've emailed them to double check that this is indeed correct.

4. More lifter news...
The lifters I'm running are NOT what I thought they were. After digging through all my receipts (a traumatizing experience!) I found out that they are the 869-12 High Energy stock replacements (not the 865-12 Pro Magnums). I also pulled a pushrod and could see the light weight retainer clip on the lifter (not the heavy duty clip of the 865's).

I also tried checking lobe height and coil bind with a dial indicator and feeler gauge, but the lifters would bleed down so fast that I couldn't get an accurate reading.

WTF??

-Banning.