Factory hyd. roller lifter conversion?

[Blazer406]

Seems the V8 guys have been doing this conversion successfully..... since our motors take the retrofit hyd roller lifters for a SBC.... I don't see why we couldn't use factory hydraulic roller tappets. Seems the V8 and 90 deg V6 lifters are too tall.... and are not very good candidates for the conversion..... because the higher lift cams might push the lifter up enough in the bore to block off the oil port....... or the "dogbone" will come up off the top of the lifter bore. It appears to me the 60 deg V6 lifter would work fine. You could use the lifters and dogbones from a 60 deg V6 and the spider from either factory hydraulic roller 3.8's, 4.3's, or any of the V8's that come with the spider.... you would just have to cut it down to fit. Here is some info I have found for the lifters:

 

[Blazer406]

17120070 (AC DELCO HL118)

SHORT Conversion - OEM for 4 cyl & V6
2.230" x .842" GM Hydraulic Roller
2.2L/134 OHV 4 1994-03, 3.1L/189 OHV V6 1993-03, 3.4L/207 OHV V6 1996-03
GM 17102014, 17120070

AC Delco: HL118
Dana-Clevite: 213-1756
Eaton, SBI: VL138
Elgin: HL2270
Enginetech: L2270
Federal Mogul-Sealed Power: HT2270
Hylift Johnson-Topline: A-2270
Melling: JB2270
Moresa: HR376
Stanadyne: T0082
VTI: RL280


Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, S-Series - 2.2L 1994 - 2003

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, All Models - 3.4L 1996

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, All Models - 3.4L 1997 - 2003

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, Beretta, Corsica - 2.2L 1994 - 1996

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, All Models - 2.0L, 2.2L OHV 1994

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, All Models, Eng/Code J - 3.1L 2000 - 2001

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, 3.1L, 3.4L - 3.1L, 3.4L 1997 - 2003

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, Impala, Monte Carlo - 3.4L 2000 - 2003

Engine - Cylinder head & valves - Valve lifters
VALVE LIFTERS, 2.2L - 2.2L SOHC 1995 - 2002

 

[Blazer406]

This looks like it would work for the roller lifter conversion. For the spring upgrade... I was thinking of some beehive LS1 springs with +.050 retainers to get the installed height correct.

I have called myself looking.... but don't see anyone that has tried it. Any thoughts?

 

[Blazer406]

Here is a couple of threads where some V8 guys were looking into this conversion.


Interesting Thread

Another one:

Another Thread

 

[Mike Licht]

The spider does not fit correctly and will not retain the dog bones. It has been tried a few times
Mike

 

[Blazer406]

The spider does not fit correctly and will not retain the dog bones. It has been tried a few times
Mike

which spider are you referring to?

I see 4 different ones I might could find in the boneyard....

the 60 deg V6 one....
the 4.3L V6 one....
the 3800 V6 one....
and the older factory hyd roller small block chevy's....

Looks like at least the 3800 one should be real close....

Which ones are you referring to Mike?

 

[turbofabricator]

which spider are you referring to?

I see 4 different ones I might could find in the boneyard....

the 60 deg V6 one....
the 4.3L V6 one....
the 3800 V6 one....
and the older factory hyd roller small block chevy's....

Looks like at least the 3800 one should be real close....

Which ones are you referring to Mike?

Seems like ALOT of work when you can just give Fullthrottle a call and order lifters that work flawlessly. I'd hate to try some new valve train piece then find out it killed your engine. The science has been done. The wheel is round. Now, don't get me wrong. I think it's a great idea to swim upsteam a bit. But valvetrain geometry is a tricky thing to get just right.

 

[Blazer406]

Seems like ALOT of work when you can just give Fullthrottle a call and order lifters that work flawlessly. I'd hate to try some new valve train piece then find out it killed your engine. The science has been done. The wheel is round. Now, don't get me wrong. I think it's a great idea to swim upsteam a bit. But valvetrain geometry is a tricky thing to get just right.

Yea... it is alot of work. But.... it doesn't cost anything (relatively) to try a few things. I can't find any old posts where someone has done it or tried it... and posted about it on the board.

FWIW it would be alot easier......I'm just trying to find a way to upgrade cheaper.

I'm sure this setup wouldn't work for a 8000 RPM engine... but should be fine around 5500 - 6000.

 

[Mike Licht]

I tried spiders from v6 engines and cut down a couple for v8s. I even tried a Ford unit. There really is no place to properly attach it in the valley without welding. Also as I recall the vally was going to need machining to get the dogbones to fit. It has been quite a few years since we tried this so maybe something else is out there, but I don't know what it might be. At that time it was just too much work and money for something that was not really right in the first place. Go for it maybe you will have better luck.
Mike

 

[Blazer406]

Ok.... went to the local junkyards... and found a 3.1 hyd roller core engine..... and a 3800 core engine.... both with the intakes already off.... I got the lifters out of the 3.1..... and the spider and dogbones out of the 3800... along with the pushrods.... and 2 of the lifters from it....

Here are the pics of the lifters and dogbones dropped into my 109 with a 204/214 cam in there just for mock-up. The only block clearancing that needs to be done is on #6 .... it is too tight on the dogbone... a few min with a diegrinder should fix this issue. The spider out of the 3800 almost fits.... it will need to be adjusted some... and something made to fasten it to the block.... I will have to ponder on that awhile....

Anyway.... here is the pics.

I picked all this up for $20. Looks like it has some promise....

 

[Blazer406]

three more. Middle pic shows the 3800 lifter up beside the 3.1 lifter.... the 3800 lifter looks much longer.... The dogbone is shown in the last pic..... they look different than the small block chevy dogbones...

 

[ijames]

Seems like ALOT of work when you can just give Fullthrottle a call and order lifters that work flawlessly. I'd hate to try some new valve train piece then find out it killed your engine. The science has been done. The wheel is round. Now, don't get me wrong. I think it's a great idea to swim upsteam a bit. But valvetrain geometry is a tricky thing to get just right.

Flawlessly may be going a bit far . I know of at least two engines local to me that had a link bar come loose, letting the lifter spin sideways and wiping out the cam. Besides, the lifter has to be a little lighter without the link bar.

Hmm, wonder if you could combine a rev kit and dogbone holddown clip, all held in place by the bottom of the head? That, with beehive springs, would really let a hydraulic roller rev.

 

[Blazer406]

Looks like the 3800 lifter is about 2.60 long...... and the 3.1L is about 2.26 long.

 

[trading t/a]

I thought about this a while back, the easiest way to do it without stretching your pocket book would be to drill and tap the intake valllety for two studs. lay the spider tray in and two bolts on the studs to retain it. you'll have to cut the intake gasket so it won't interfere with the spider.

The other way would be to bore out the lifter bore say 1/4 in. by 1/4 deep insert a bushing the exact size of the dog bone into the lifter bore and weld it or press it in. No need for a spider or how to mount it, the lifter will never rotate. It may cost a little more than u want on maching...

 

[Blazer406]

I thought about this a while back, the easiest way to do it without stretching your pocket book would be to drill and tap the intake valllety for two studs. lay the spider tray in and two bolts on the studs to retain it. you'll have to cut the intake gasket so it won't interfere with the spider.

The other way would be to bore out the lifter bore say 1/4 in. by 1/4 deep insert a bushing the exact size of the dog bone into the lifter bore and weld it or press it in. No need for a spider or how to mount it, the lifter will never rotate. It may cost a little more than u want on maching...

I am a little confused as to why the intake gasket would need to be cut.

If you did the bore on the lifter bore and pressed in an insert with the flats..... how would you get the lifters out when you wanted to pull the cam?

 

[turbofabricator]

The typical link bar issue is because the link bar contacts the lifter bore. (the block) I have seen this a few times on StageII engines. Those were solid rollers though. It looks like the OEM lifters would work if we could get someone to fab a spider for the 109 block. A "rev kit" might work too. Although, the rev kit is a PIA to install. (On a stageII). Maybe this needs more looking into. Keep going guy.

 

[TurboBob]

I had a link bar break also..... (Comp Billet roller cam)

It may also be due to a lifter hitting an adjacent lobe and putting some twist on the lifter.

Bob

 

[trading t/a]

the gasket would only have to be cut using a spider tray. the metal gasket bows down towards the valley would prolly interfere with the spider.

Using the other method you could turn the cam over by hand, the lifter will pop up at the top of the lobe. or use a magnetic pickup tyo withdraw the lifter out of the bore. Also you have to be sure not to block the oil orifice inside the lifter bore.........

 

[Blazer406]

Here is a pic after I soaked them in a gallon of carb cleaner overnight... and wiped them up... and blew them out. They cleaned up nicely. I need to find at least one more.... one has some slight pitting on one of the rollers. The two by themselves on the right are the ones that came out of the 3800 that I got the dogbones and spider out of. They look a good deal taller than the 60 deg V6 ones.

 

[TurboBob]

Here is a pic after I soaked them in a gallon of carb cleaner overnight... and wiped them up... and blew them out. They cleaned up nicely. I need to find at least one more.... one has some slight pitting on one of the rollers. The two by themselves on the right are the ones that came out of the 3800 that I got the dogbones and spider out of. They look a good deal taller than the 60 deg V6 ones.

Take the pitted one apart and see how gunky the internals are.

Did you grind/clearance the block or the dogbone?

Bob