First Post :)

Pablo

Active Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Good call on an E85 forum.
I'm sure this will help to dispel some of the myths about E85. I would love to do the conversion but E85 is not available in CA.

I'd like to see how many members have converted and the details of their rides.

Post up!
 
This is great. I will check out the WRX site to see what they know and share it with everyone.
Conrad
 
Good call on an E85 forum.
I'm sure this will help to dispel some of the myths about E85. I would love to do the conversion but E85 is not available in CA.

I'd like to see how many members have converted and the details of their rides.

Post up!

Pablo,
I'm pretty sure they still sell it at that "green" fuel center in San Diego.
 
This should be interesting to see where this goes. BTW - Who is the expert on E85 and how many states are currently selling it? We have heard lots of talk in Oklahoma but yet to see it at the pump.
 
someone should definitely make a sticky thread about E-85!

shell has a dozen E-85 stations in the toronto and greater toronto area. the other companies have nothing! but it's growing.

i've been considering a move to E-85 for my 1999 buick regal gs. with 104-105 octane for the price of regular, i'll be able to run ~20 psig boost without an intercooler:tongue: i'll also fly through emissions tests.

it's not available everywhere...so trips outside toronto would be scary if i couldn't turn the boost down. you'll also lose 20% fuel economy, and need 30% more fuel flow.
 
Pablo,
I'm pretty sure they still sell it at that "green" fuel center in San Diego.

Yeah, I should have said widely available in CA. Last I checked that green fuel center was the only place in the entire state open to the public!

GN Brett

E85 is 85% ethanol alcohol and 15% gas. During winter times from what I have read the mix can drop down to 70% ethanol and the rest gas because ethanol does not like cold starts.

It is leaps and bounds a better fuel than gasoline in that it has a higher octane (around 104) it has a much higher latent heat value (the amount of heat it absorbs in the process of turning into a vapor...put your finger in alcohol and hold it in the wind you'll see how it is cool afterwards)
and it has higher specific energy. Specific energy is a measurement of how much energy it releases when burned for best power. Its like the sum of both air and fuel when burned in an equivalent amount to something else. For example. Lets say you had 1 cubic foot of space to burn fuel and air in. If you filled that space with a best power AFR mix using gasoline for an NA application, you would have around 12.7:1 parts air to gasoline ratio in that 1 cubic foot of space.
For straight ethanol, in that one cubic foot, you would have much more ethanol and a lot less air. Something like 9:1 parts air to ethanol. So while its true that per fluid gallon ethanol has less energy, In practice, using more of it per "cubic foot" you end up releasing more energy in combustion.

The reason you run more ethanol than gasoline is because ethanol carries its own oxygen. Its the same principal behind why Nitrous works. Nitrous itself doesn't burn, but it allows you to run a lot more fuel since the nitrous is providing the oxygen for that extra fuel that would otherwise not be there.

All these things add up to make a great fuel for forced induction. The latent heat property is important because this can make the fuel seem like it is actually a higher octane than it is because it is taking away the heat that contributes to detonation. IIRC Donnie Wang who runs his car on straight methanol I think figured his fuel was more equivalent to 130 octane gasoline despite methanol being more like 118 octane because of the latent heat value of methanol (which is higher than ethanol).

I also think that the talk of fuel systems not being able to handle ethanol are greatly exaggerated. There are plenty of people online running e85 in cars that were sold as Gas only without problems. For some reason I get the sense that some people think that E85 is like sulfuric acid. Our cars are already designed to handle fuel that is 10% ethanol. If you look at how the oem's design things, they never design them to just barely be compatible or just barely be adequate. The safety factor of things (or how much they are over designed for the purpose) can exceed 15 times the anticipated load or use. I think this is evident when you have plenty of people running e85 in vehicles with stock fuel systems without fuel system problems. Do a search online and you will see this. People have left rubber hoses sitting in it for months without any noticeable deterioration. Not the most scientific test, but it still illustrates nonetheless that it is not sulfuric acid.
 
Yeah, I should have said widely available in CA. Last I checked that green fuel center was the only place in the entire state open to the public!

GN Brett

E85 is 85% ethanol alcohol and 15% gas. During winter times from what I have read the mix can drop down to 70% ethanol and the rest gas because ethanol does not like cold starts.

It is leaps and bounds a better fuel than gasoline in that it has a higher octane (around 104) it has a much higher latent heat value (the amount of heat it absorbs in the process of turning into a vapor...put your finger in alcohol and hold it in the wind you'll see how it is cool afterwards)
and it has higher specific energy. Specific energy is a measurement of how much energy it releases when burned for best power. Its like the sum of both air and fuel when burned in an equivalent amount to something else. For example. Lets say you had 1 cubic foot of space to burn fuel and air in. If you filled that space with a best power AFR mix using gasoline for an NA application, you would have around 12.7:1 parts air to gasoline ratio in that 1 cubic foot of space.
For straight ethanol, in that one cubic foot, you would have much more ethanol and a lot less air. Something like 9:1 parts air to ethanol. So while its true that per fluid gallon ethanol has less energy, In practice, using more of it per "cubic foot" you end up releasing more energy in combustion.

The reason you run more ethanol than gasoline is because ethanol carries its own oxygen. Its the same principal behind why Nitrous works. Nitrous itself doesn't burn, but it allows you to run a lot more fuel since the nitrous is providing the oxygen for that extra fuel that would otherwise not be there.

All these things add up to make a great fuel for forced induction. The latent heat property is important because this can make the fuel seem like it is actually a higher octane than it is because it is taking away the heat that contributes to detonation. IIRC Donnie Wang who runs his car on straight methanol I think figured his fuel was more equivalent to 130 octane gasoline despite methanol being more like 118 octane because of the latent heat value of methanol (which is higher than ethanol).

I also think that the talk of fuel systems not being able to handle ethanol are greatly exaggerated. There are plenty of people online running e85 in cars that were sold as Gas only without problems. For some reason I get the sense that some people think that E85 is like sulfuric acid. Our cars are already designed to handle fuel that is 10% ethanol. If you look at how the oem's design things, they never design them to just barely be compatible or just barely be adequate. The safety factor of things (or how much they are over designed for the purpose) can exceed 15 times the anticipated load or use. I think this is evident when you have plenty of people running e85 in vehicles with stock fuel systems without fuel system problems. Do a search online and you will see this. People have left rubber hoses sitting in it for months without any noticeable deterioration. Not the most scientific test, but it still illustrates nonetheless that it is not sulfuric acid.

Kool, thanx.
 
the rule of thumb with octane is: 1 psi per 1 octane.

e.g. 10 psi on 93 octane. 22 psi on e-85 (105-93=12)

there are four phases of matter - gas, liquid, solid, and plasma. changing phases involves lots of energy. the latent heat of vapourisation is a measure of the energy a substance absorbs to change from liquid to gas. as liquid ethanol is injected into the intake, it vapourises, absorbs lots of heat, and acts like an intercooler.

on a side note: 58 mL of liquid ethanol becomes 22.4 L of gaseous ethanol. it increases volume by 384x!! when liquid fuel is injected into the intake, it displaces air. injecting fuel directly into the cylinder allows more air in, vapourises the fuel better, and cools the combustion chamber. direct injection is a wonderful thing. idle lope is cause by inconsistent fuel/air mixture near the sparkplug - from over scavenging at idle. di will eliminate this.

on the chemical side, energy is released by breaking bonds between atoms. gasoline is a long chain of carbons - loys of bonds. ethanol is a smaller molecule. that's why gasoline has a higher energy density. however, that long chain is harder to completely break apart. in the short time that combustion takes place, not all gasoline molecules react completely - incomplete combustion.

because ethanol is small, it has more surface area to react. it also carries its own oxygen, and this helps it react more completely. this is why e-85 produces way fewer measured exhaust species - carbon monoxide, HC. it does produce some other nasty products, but we ignore them at the moment. you can slide through emissions tests (almost without a cat).
 
i found this site which sells a flex-fuel conversion kit. $424

E85 Conversion Kits Change2E85.com

it has some interesting info.

i'm set to convert my 1999 buick regal gs to e-85. an adjustable fuel pressure regulator - 72.5 psi - and a tank of e-85. a 3.2" pulley and pcm will be a nice boost;)

are there any companies that sell e-85 chips for turbo buicks? i don't see that it'd take much more than just increasing fuel pressure, or injector size 32%.
 
The "E85 Conversion Kit" site does not cover our TR's. Darn! The only GM 6 cylinder covered is 90-99 Buick. Wonder what is included in their kit?
Conrfad
 
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