Fuel system upgrades (again)

[JustABuick]

Hey everyone,

Back in January I upgraded to E85- DW300, 80s, E85 rubber lines and an E85 fuel filter, and an Extreme Extender chip. In the spring I tuplied an exhaust valve, so I was down most of the summer. Now I'm getting the car dialed in, and and it seems that at 21-22 psi, the fueling is maxed out (11.8-12.0 afr-even with a base fuel psi of 50 and extra fueling on translator maxed out). When I made the upgrade, I wasn't aware the car had Champion iron heads, so that's probably why the fuel can't keep up.

So, I was hoping to avoid this, but it looks like I will have to do another upgrade. I was hoping to first get a powerlogger and an SD2 chip to see if maybe my current setup is not maxed out, and I just need more tuning abilities.

So here's my winter project upgrade list- is anything a first priority, or is anything overkill?

Upgraded fuel lines- Will that kit have enough oomph at -8 and -6 lines? http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/tu...d-large-single-pumps-turbo-buick-v6-cars.html

Are my 80s maxed out?

I will need a double pump hanger with AN fittings (where can I get one)? AND, would adding a second DW300 pump be enough?

I would like to get a powerlogger and SD2 chip, but if I'm getting the ECM modded for the PL, I would rather be ready and have it modded for 120s if I have to.

Thanks for your input,

Kelly

 

[Nick Micale]

Without proper data, you are just guessing on what is needed?

You should be running high 10's with your current build.

Larger lines may help, but you do not know injector duty cycle or voltage feeding the pump?

We see 2 major fuel systems issues' in the cars we service and repair.

First is the stock type sender is a piece of crap for a modified GN, wiring is inadequate and the lines/fittings are also.

Second, fuel pumps are rated at 13.5 volts, and should be more at WOT. A hot wire kit is only 1/2 the solution, as the ground should be directly connected to the battery with "real" wire, not the off-shore junk.

One turbo car with a 3.8 and alum heads with e-85 pulled 625 HP on the dyno with 60 psi base FP, and ran a 10.2 with 2 in-tank pumps, stock lines and 14+ volts with 10 ga. wires to the battery!

This fuel system was upgraded since a major engine upgrade looking for the 9's with one in-tank pump!

 

[JustABuick]

Without proper data, you are just guessing on what is needed?

You should be running high 10's with your current build.

Larger lines may help, but you do not know injector duty cycle or voltage feeding the pump?

We see 2 major fuel systems issues' in the cars we service and repair.

First is the stock type sender is a piece of crap for a modified GN, wiring is inadequate and the lines/fittings are also.

Second, fuel pumps are rated at 13.5 volts, and should be more at WOT. A hot wire kit is only 1/2 the solution, as the ground should be directly connected to the battery with "real" wire, not the off-shore junk.

One turbo car with a 3.8 and alum heads with e-85 pulled 625 HP on the dyno with 60 psi base FP, and ran a 10.2 with 2 in-tank pumps, stock lines and 14+ volts with 10 ga. wires to the battery!

This fuel system was upgraded since a major engine upgrade looking for the 9's with one in-tank pump!

View attachment 290422 View attachment 290423

Unfortunately, you're right, Nick. I do not have all of the data I need...just base fuel psi and AFR from a PLX wideband. That is reason I would like to get a Powerlogger, so it sounds like i should get a Powerlogger first, and that Metco unit that has a FP gauge that can be mounted to the hood.

I'm not even on the same planet as high 10's right now. It is becoming frustrating, but i know that is a part of the learning curve. I don't know IDC or voltage feeding the pump, a good GN friend suggested a volt booster for the pump, but just because it may fuel sufficiently to 21psi, doesn't mean it would keep up at 25+psi?

So, Powerlogger, sending unit, FP gauge that can be mounted to the hood first. Once the fuel system is beefed up, it sounds like the stock bottom end and turbo will be the limiting factor

 

[SHADOWII]

Mark of TRcustoms offers a nice hood mount kit, w/or w/o the gauge.

 

[JustABuick]

Mark of TRcustoms offers a nice hood mount kit, w/or w/o the gauge.

Thanks, that looks like a nice setup.

 

[JustABuick]

Anyone with a similar build have suggestions on fuel pump, fuel line, and injector advice? I'm hoping with the right system, the car would handle 25psi

 

[JustABuick]

Update:

I got the Metco fuel pressure gauge with hose that can be temporarily mounted to watch the fuel pressure under boost, and at fuel pressure base 50 (vac line off), and at 22-24psi of boost, the fuel pressure was only getting between 60-65psi, so it's falling short (should be 72-74psi).

So likely issue causing a fuel pressure shortage would be pump, stock lines, and/or injectors. I could get a Powerlogger (and will) to test the IDC, but it is probably the pump or the lines holding back.

 

[BEATAV8]

That setup should include a volt booster and heavy duty in tank wiring (intermediate harness it's often called) to go along with the usual "hot wire". Most hot wire kits seem to be missing this upgrade for some reason, and its absolutely critical.

A powerlogger and a fuel pressure transducer would also help a lot so you can record and analyze your fuel pressure and boost pressure closely.

Larger fuel lines wouldn't hurt, but cars with twin pumps and larger injectors than 80's typically get by with stock lines doing just fine.

 

[BEATAV8]

For 10.90's like Nick said your current setup would be fine, just need the minor changes for increased voltage supply and data logging / tuning.

If you want to run faster into the mid tens or quicker then you would need to look into options for "bigger" fuel systems.

For reference, I use twin DW300 with -8 feed and -6 return to feed 160lb injectors. The twin DW's are capable of fully supporting the 160's with a little extra cushion.

 

[JustABuick]

That setup should include a volt booster and heavy duty in tank wiring (intermediate harness it's often called) to go along with the usual "hot wire". Most hot wire kits seem to be missing this upgrade for some reason, and its absolutely critical.

A powerlogger and a fuel pressure transducer would also help a lot so you can record and analyze your fuel pressure and boost pressure closely.

Larger fuel lines wouldn't hurt, but cars with twin pumps and larger injectors than 80's typically get by with stock lines doing just fine.

Thanks for the response, Steve. I am just learning about volt boosters, and it sounds like the ones from Caspers don't fry your alternator? I'll get one of those, and I will absolutely get a Powerlogger soon. I'm not familiar with a fuel pressure transducer, I'll research that. I guess it's cars that have trouble keeping the pressure DOWN that need larger lines?

For 10.90's like Nick said your current setup would be fine, just need the minor changes for increased voltage supply and data logging / tuning.

If you want to run faster into the mid tens or quicker then you would need to look into options for "bigger" fuel systems.

For reference, I use twin DW300 with -8 feed and -6 return to feed 160lb injectors. The twin DW's are capable of fully supporting the 160's with a little extra cushion.

I would be elated with 10.90s, that is more than I could ask for with my current setup. I was afraid I was going to have to run your setup except with 120's, but your build is probably leaps and bounds more stout than mine.

 

[JustABuick]

Also, where can I get that heavy duty in tank wiring?

 

[BEATAV8]

Thanks for the response, Steve. I am just learning about volt boosters, and it sounds like the ones from Caspers don't fry your alternator? I'll get one of those, and I will absolutely get a Powerlogger soon. I'm not familiar with a fuel pressure transducer, I'll research that. I guess it's cars that have trouble keeping the pressure DOWN that need larger lines?



I would be elated with 10.90s, that is more than I could ask for with my current setup. I was afraid I was going to have to run your setup except with 120's, but your build is probably leaps and bounds more stout than mine.

Yes the Casper volt booster works well, no drama with that one. The fuel pressure transducer will report the fuel pressure from the rail back to the powerlogger so you can record and review it and make sure the fuel pressure is 1:1 rise with boost and is also well controlled. In the pics I attached above you will see FPSI. That's my fuel pressure. Razor has a good transducer with a plug n play.
Fuel systems that have issues keeping fuel pressure down typically have that issue because the fuel pump is just too large for the return line. If you tried to use a 450lph single pump, it would have too much fuel pressure at low idle because the engine isn't using much fuel and all the flow has to return to tank via the tiny stock return line. Not a problem with double pumpers as long as the pumps are staged (2nd pump runs only when in boost). In my experience the 320 and 340lph pumps are OK with stock lines as long as the stock lines are in good shape, no bends or crushed spots or deformed fittings.

Try caspers for the heavy duty in tank wiring. Racetronix apparently discontinued their intermediate harnesses for some reason.

 

[JustABuick]

Yes the Casper volt booster works well, no drama with that one. The fuel pressure transducer will report the fuel pressure from the rail back to the powerlogger so you can record and review it and make sure the fuel pressure is 1:1 rise with boost and is also well controlled. In the pics I attached above you will see FPSI. That's my fuel pressure. Razor has a good transducer with a plug n play.
Fuel systems that have issues keeping fuel pressure down typically have that issue because the fuel pump is just too large for the return line. If you tried to use a 450lph single pump, it would have too much fuel pressure at low idle because the engine isn't using much fuel and all the flow has to return to tank via the tiny stock return line. Not a problem with double pumpers as long as the pumps are staged (2nd pump runs only when in boost). In my experience the 320 and 340lph pumps are OK with stock lines as long as the stock lines are in good shape, no bends or crushed spots or deformed fittings.

Try caspers for the heavy duty in tank wiring. Racetronix apparently discontinued their intermediate harnesses for some reason.

Thanks again for all the info. I'll grab those items and do some logging (probably will have to wait until spring). What is the method to tune the pumps so that the 2nd one only kicks on under boost? Can you get a hanger for two pumps but would still fit stock lines?

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

Look at some of my threads in this section for guidance as well. I use a 6262 and could not seem to get enough fuel till I had new lines, pumpS and larger 120's

 

[BEATAV8]

Thanks again for all the info. I'll grab those items and do some logging (probably will have to wait until spring). What is the method to tune the pumps so that the 2nd one only kicks on under boost? Can you get a hanger for two pumps but would still fit stock lines?

Yes, this is one:
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/tu...r-jic-adapters-for-turbo-buick-gn-t-type.html

use the hose barbs to connect to stock lines.

However I am more partial to the DW300 pump myself. It's been good to me.
With 80's, a single "volt boosted" DW300 would be all you need.
With 120's, a 510lph double pumper.
With 160's, a 680lph double pumper.

Check these out too. These are available with the DW300:
http://arizonagn.com/?page_id=755

 

[JustABuick]

Look at some of my threads in this section for guidance as well. I use a 6262 and could not seem to get enough fuel till I had new lines, pumpS and larger 120's

Thanks, I'm following your most recent thread, it's definitely nice to get advice from guys that have been there and done that already.

 

[JustABuick]

Yes, this is one:
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/tu...r-jic-adapters-for-turbo-buick-gn-t-type.html

use the hose barbs to connect to stock lines.

However I am more partial to the DW300 pump myself. It's been good to me.
With 80's, a single "volt boosted" DW300 would be all you need.
With 120's, a 510lph double pumper.
With 160's, a 680lph double pumper.

Check these out too. These are available with the DW300:
http://arizonagn.com/?page_id=755

I also like my DW300, I have no complaints at all. Thanks for the break down, I'll get that volt booster on ASAP. I would also like to get an SD2 chip with flex fuel this winter.

 

[horndog]

I will probably have my Racetronix double pumper 510 for sale soon

 

[JustABuick]

Despite my better judgement, I went to the track yesterday for the season's last TNT at my local track. Sunny and low-60's, dry air. 1st pass the Nittos were at 15psi, boost at 20.

I do a big burnout, throw the car in D, and hold the brakes until boost hits 8-10psi, and launch- the car doesn't hook worth crap, almost does another burnout in the 60'....let off, get back in, and hooks and scoots. ended up with a 2.5 second 60', BUT with my highest trap speed ever at 112mph (1/4 time was 12.8). AFR was only 10.6-10.8, so I add one pound of boost.

I repeat for the second pass, launch a little softer, 1/4 time drops to 12.54, still 112mph. Up the boost once again

Third pass, 22psi boost, 17 psi in the Nittos, launch at 4-5psi-tires spin a little, i reel back, and get back into it. Car hooks and pulls, I pass the 2016 Mustang like he was in reverse and get my fastest time ever at a 12.108 with a 1.875 60' and 112,69mph. New best.

I was being a dumb dumb and making a rookie mistake when tuning earlier this month-I was doing it on OD, not in D. In D, the car ran richer, and didn't complain about running lean. Fastest mph went from 108-112.69.

Finally some signs of life with the car. A volt booster will still probably be a good idea, but my fuel system might be enough.


Kelly

 

[horndog]

Well, sounds like you just have bugs to work out and nothing too serious yet.
I did just purchase a Racetronix 680 and my 510 double pumper will be up for sale soon