I'm charging my battery and thinking. Question, I run 14.5 volts or so. My batteries typically last just fine but they do put out more gas than normal with the higher voltage. Anybody have an idea of a better battery that won't do this without doing a full 16V conversion?
Gassy Battery...
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For years I have not used a battery with liquid, my choice has been sealed gel-cel type.
The Orbital Exide battery in my race car is about 6 years old and still going strong with my alt output always over 14 volts.
After talking with the tech guy in person from Odyssey batteries I was impressed their new technology, that will be my choice for a battery next time.
The Orbital Exide battery in my race car is about 6 years old and still going strong with my alt output always over 14 volts.
After talking with the tech guy in person from Odyssey batteries I was impressed their new technology, that will be my choice for a battery next time.
H
Heisenberg
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I don't know crap about Turbo Regals - but this I might know something about. 
I happen to sell batteries - albeit slightly larger ones. www.Alpha.com
Any significant out-gassing - if you will, mainly occurs at discharge.
Discharges on automotive batteries happen relatively seldom - i.e. starting
Yes - there is some out gassing at what we refer to as float voltage, (car running) but it is generally not considered significant.
Also, an automotive battery is designed to have a relatively shallow depth of discharge. DOD in the trade jargon is an all important specification.
It then determines how much power must be put back into the battery to get it to a full state of charge.
When you have to do a heavy recharge, you are pumping more power back into the battery, and you will use more water- i.e. out gas (split the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen)
So again, not a hugely significant amount of recharge should occur under normal operating condtions.
And if you consider the duty cycle, the car is only running for a relatively short period vs the time it is off.
Hence, even float voltages, and any slight out gassing; are minimized.
"Typical" float voltage for a lead acid cell is = 2.35 volts per cell. x 6 cells
Guess how much voltage? = 14.1V
Different manufacturers may recommend slightly different float voltages - but I would guess in the automotive world - they are based upon a range of voltages
In the industrial world - we can set the microprocessor based chargers to output exactly what we want.
EDIT - WE4Mateo - you asked about one of those volt booster situations.
So I would assume it is modifying the regulator on the alternator to produce a higher output.
You then are "floating" your battery at a higher voltage.
Now, basically, once your battery is fully charged, any additional voltage does nothing (good) for the battery. But my thinking, and I would have to run this by my guys, is that this would be a slight equivalent to what we call "boost charging" or equalize charging.
This is referred to as "gassing voltage" - or typically about 14.4 volts
Where you for a period of time, give the battery a higher voltage.
I can tell you from my years of experience in the battery world - this will shorten your battery life, slightly, as you will produce more out gassing. And generally speaking, you have no way to add more water to your battery since it is "sealed"
To give you an anecdotal example - you can watch a normal battery under float voltage just lazily bubble every now and then.
But put it on equalize, and you see a significant increase in bubbles ; i.e. outgassing. Loss of water. While most automotive batteries have designed into the cases a margin of error for electrolyte level, once you expose the plates to air, you lose (significant) battery capacity.
We have had clients screw up and leave their chargers on equalize mode, only to come back (many months later mind you) - and find their batteries dry.
Extreme example I know. What happens to an auto battery at 16 or 17 volts for a relaltively shorter period of time I can not answer at the moment.
It can get alot more technical as to what a higher voltage is doing to the plates and such - but for now - I think that is good.
How would a Hawker style with immobilized Gel type electrolyte respond to higher float voltages I couldn't say without doing more research.
As to Enerysys, and their competitors promoting the new technologies.
It's kind of funny - since it is actually an old technology.
Based more upon using a pure lead positive plate vs an PbAntimony or PbCalcium positive plate.
And sometimes wound in a spiral for more surface area in a smaller footprint. (Energy density)
In the industrial world - we refer to that as a Plante' (plaan-tay) plate. Reference Gaston Plante', and the first battery types using pure lead.
Plante was used for years before being replaced with more commercially advantageous grid alloys. But it has its advantages - mainly much longer life of the grid and higher discharge rates.
Cost or ease of manufacturing is not one of them
One advantage of using a thixotropic gel is the immobilization of the electrolyte. So these batteries do not need to be placed in an upright position.
Also, since they are less sensitive to higher temperatures, because unlike Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) type batteries, they tend not to "dry out" as much - they have a longer life span.
However, between a pure lead grid and the gel electrolyte vs a AGM style VRLA or traditional wet cell - there is pretty hefty price premium.
Add those positive features to the marketing hype - and I've seen these batteries sell for 2 - 3X the price of a traditional wet cell. Again - in the automotive world - cost is "almost" everything.
But it is your basic VRLA battery, but instead of using absorbed glass mats (AGM) and alloy grids, it has a pure lead grid and thixotropic gel as an electrolyte.
In an auto - my GN auto for instance - I like some of these for the "energy density"- power vs weight or size ratio; - i.e. weight savings.
In the automtoive world - muscle car or new OEM - it's all about weight.
Now the cool batteries are the ones being used for the Start/ Stop systems.
By the way - the picture title says Exploded battery - which is BS.
They seldom, if ever - explode.
What they do do is enter a state called "thermal runaway" - which when the plates contact each other (short circuit) or separators dry out. After your battery has become "too gassy"
I happen to sell batteries - albeit slightly larger ones. www.Alpha.com
Any significant out-gassing - if you will, mainly occurs at discharge.
Discharges on automotive batteries happen relatively seldom - i.e. starting
Yes - there is some out gassing at what we refer to as float voltage, (car running) but it is generally not considered significant.
Also, an automotive battery is designed to have a relatively shallow depth of discharge. DOD in the trade jargon is an all important specification.
It then determines how much power must be put back into the battery to get it to a full state of charge.
When you have to do a heavy recharge, you are pumping more power back into the battery, and you will use more water- i.e. out gas (split the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen)
So again, not a hugely significant amount of recharge should occur under normal operating condtions.
And if you consider the duty cycle, the car is only running for a relatively short period vs the time it is off.
Hence, even float voltages, and any slight out gassing; are minimized.
"Typical" float voltage for a lead acid cell is = 2.35 volts per cell. x 6 cells
Guess how much voltage? = 14.1V
Different manufacturers may recommend slightly different float voltages - but I would guess in the automotive world - they are based upon a range of voltages
In the industrial world - we can set the microprocessor based chargers to output exactly what we want.
EDIT - WE4Mateo - you asked about one of those volt booster situations.
So I would assume it is modifying the regulator on the alternator to produce a higher output.
You then are "floating" your battery at a higher voltage.
Now, basically, once your battery is fully charged, any additional voltage does nothing (good) for the battery. But my thinking, and I would have to run this by my guys, is that this would be a slight equivalent to what we call "boost charging" or equalize charging.
This is referred to as "gassing voltage" - or typically about 14.4 volts
Where you for a period of time, give the battery a higher voltage.
I can tell you from my years of experience in the battery world - this will shorten your battery life, slightly, as you will produce more out gassing. And generally speaking, you have no way to add more water to your battery since it is "sealed"
To give you an anecdotal example - you can watch a normal battery under float voltage just lazily bubble every now and then.
But put it on equalize, and you see a significant increase in bubbles ; i.e. outgassing. Loss of water. While most automotive batteries have designed into the cases a margin of error for electrolyte level, once you expose the plates to air, you lose (significant) battery capacity.
We have had clients screw up and leave their chargers on equalize mode, only to come back (many months later mind you) - and find their batteries dry.
Extreme example I know. What happens to an auto battery at 16 or 17 volts for a relaltively shorter period of time I can not answer at the moment.
It can get alot more technical as to what a higher voltage is doing to the plates and such - but for now - I think that is good.
How would a Hawker style with immobilized Gel type electrolyte respond to higher float voltages I couldn't say without doing more research.
As to Enerysys, and their competitors promoting the new technologies.
It's kind of funny - since it is actually an old technology.
Based more upon using a pure lead positive plate vs an PbAntimony or PbCalcium positive plate.
And sometimes wound in a spiral for more surface area in a smaller footprint. (Energy density)
In the industrial world - we refer to that as a Plante' (plaan-tay) plate. Reference Gaston Plante', and the first battery types using pure lead.
Plante was used for years before being replaced with more commercially advantageous grid alloys. But it has its advantages - mainly much longer life of the grid and higher discharge rates.
Cost or ease of manufacturing is not one of them
One advantage of using a thixotropic gel is the immobilization of the electrolyte. So these batteries do not need to be placed in an upright position.
Also, since they are less sensitive to higher temperatures, because unlike Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) type batteries, they tend not to "dry out" as much - they have a longer life span.
However, between a pure lead grid and the gel electrolyte vs a AGM style VRLA or traditional wet cell - there is pretty hefty price premium.
Add those positive features to the marketing hype - and I've seen these batteries sell for 2 - 3X the price of a traditional wet cell. Again - in the automotive world - cost is "almost" everything.
But it is your basic VRLA battery, but instead of using absorbed glass mats (AGM) and alloy grids, it has a pure lead grid and thixotropic gel as an electrolyte.
In an auto - my GN auto for instance - I like some of these for the "energy density"- power vs weight or size ratio; - i.e. weight savings.
In the automtoive world - muscle car or new OEM - it's all about weight.
Now the cool batteries are the ones being used for the Start/ Stop systems.
By the way - the picture title says Exploded battery - which is BS.
They seldom, if ever - explode.
What they do do is enter a state called "thermal runaway" - which when the plates contact each other (short circuit) or separators dry out. After your battery has become "too gassy"
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Rustyregal
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Wow, good write up. Felt like I just finished a college course!
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turbofrank
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x2
H
Heisenberg
Guest
Pop quiz tomorrow!
And please try to say Thixotropic Gel threes times - rapidly!
It's kind of funny.
Things run in cycles.
I notice several posts pop up right about July - all asking about A/C and refrigerant issues
Then in the winter - battery or storage questions
Tis' the season!
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Rustyregal
Member
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I'll be on that a/c bandwagon once it warms up.
H
Heisenberg
Guest
My apologies WE4Mateo - since I sort of rambled about how to deal with a higher voltage on a typical 12V battery.
I do believe you referred to possibly going to a 16V battery should you change over to a higher alternator output.
So in that case - you can then probably stay within the defined specs of the 16V battery - and have the higher voltage for your WOT.
Having your cake and eating it too so to speak.
Those 16V batteries aren't cheap - but it would definitely be proper if you are running a higher output from your alternator regulator; i.e. charging voltage.
It's much like having to match a turbo with a proper stall converter
Doing one without the other is folly, and in the electrical world, possibly smokey!
Just remember the basic formula, although individual batteries may vary; so be sure to check the manufacturers specifications:
Typical Float voltage for a lead acid battery (no matter the electrolyte type) is 2.35 Volts / cell
2.35 x 6 cells = 14.1 VDC
2.35 x 7 cells - 16.5 VDC
For a race car, none of it really matters.
You are only running for such a short time, it's almost insignificant what voltage level you apply to any battery.
The purpose of the battery is mostly for starting the engine, then the alternator takes over from there.
The battery does however provide a reserve pool of energy for the momentary or instantaneous current demands; i.e. WOT blast
Regardless of the rating of the alternator; i.e .120 amp, 140 amp, 200 amp, since the battery can respond more or less instantaneously, the alternator field coils will take a fraction of time longer to output the excess current demand resulting in a voltage drop to critical systems.
But if current demand shoots way up, and there is a voltage drop - if you're running a 16.5 VDC alternator / regulator output, but a 14.1 volt (typical 12 volt nominal type) battery, the most you can get from the "system" is 14.1 VDC.
Which sort of defeats the purpose of the higher output in the first place - so again - a 16.5 volt battery (14 volt nominal) would be in order in that race setup.
Now, if you were to use a regular 12 volt battery on a street driven car, but had one of those volt boosters going, you would forever be slamming your battery with a higher than nominal voltage; i.e. not real good. In the long run. Think of it say if you went on a decently long highway cruise. You're cruising along for hours at a time, and jamming 16.5 volts into a 14 volt can. The battery is outgassing and getting hot. That's where I would be concerned.
And not noticeable, but the outgassing and resulting H2SO4 molecules tend to corrode in that air space vicinity under those conditions. That's why you'll see alot of corrosion going on if there is a bad alternator output or a bad battery case post seal, but no obvious electrolyte spillage. Unseen mist and vapors and such.
Higher voltages and / or couplled with higher operating temps tend to exaggerate what we call positive plate "growth" - Where in a PbCa (Lead Calcium positive plate) they will "grow" under high temps or high float voltages.
And allow PbO2 (Lead Peroxide) to wick up the post, and allow sulfuric acid vapors to escape. Post seal failure.
This is why we have a hearty laugh when a prospective customer refers to a battery as a "commodity"
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TexasT
Texas, Where are you from
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Cliff notes?
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............Now, if you were to use a regular 12 volt battery on a street driven car, but had one of those volt boosters going, you would forever be slamming your battery with a higher than nominal voltage; i.e. not real good. In the long run. Think of it say if you went on a decently long highway cruise. You're cruising along for hours at a time, and jamming 16.5 volts into a 14 volt can. The battery is outgassing and getting hot. That's where I would be concerned..........
Your statement does not take in account that volt boosters do not always have the alternator output at 14-15 volts since either TPS or boost or another factor does not increase the output until a certain level is reached, and it is only there for a VERY short time.
Certainly on a highway cruise you would not be at that level for long time, if ever?
I do agree you get what you pay for, and even though quality batteries are more expensive, they last longer.
With proper care a good battery will last 5-8 years, and I have found a good top line battery will last longer, so actually the cost-per-year is less expensive, especially if it lets you down at an in-opertune time!
