Head bolt hole broken - need opinions

[ShawnR]

I recently bought a 109 block with caps already on it from another user on the forum.

https://turbobuick.com/threads/030-109-block-champion-heads.456273/

It had head studs in it already, so as part of the cleanup I removed them. 1 was already loose and only lightly screwed in. I look deeper and there is a helicoil in about 1/4 below the surface. I removed the helicoil fairly easily and find that it was not just stripped threads, the "socket" that goes into the water jacket is actually broken further in. This is on the top of the left side behind the first cylinder.

Options would be helicoil it and just not go very deep, Time-sert (never used it). Either of these ways, the head stud is WAY too long.

Or do I just hit John (the seller) back up and ask for my money back? I have a good 109 block, but would have to get caps fitted & that extra machine work if I go that route.

Thoughts?

Side view through the water hole.


Down the threads.

 

[Boost231]

Gnxjohn, yup demand your money back imop

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[earlbrown]

That's interesting. A 109 block has a pretty deep counterbore so that the threads don't come all the way up to the deck surface.


I guessing the heli-coil tap was large enough to cut the counterbore?


To bad it's not local, I'd be interested to put hands on that block and do some experimentin'.

 

[BEATAV8]

That should have been disclosed up front

 

[bison]

Scrap


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[ShawnR]

I talked to John and he said that he would refund the $$ for the block so that is good. I had sent the aluminum GN1 heads to Weber to be checked out and have roller springs installed. Since they were first generation GN1s, I wanted them checked out fairly thoroughly by someone that knew what they were looking at.

Bryan Weber called me and sent me the pics. Corrosion has it pitted bad enough to need to be welded and resurfaced. Total bill is estimated at over $1000 to repair, add springs & lap valves.

He charged $206 to give me that info. Kinda steep in my opinion. I understand paying for expertise, but damn!
I am NOT planning on keeping the heads. They will go back with the block.



Best case scenario, I'm out $250 and 4 hours of driving (2 trips to Cleveland). It could be a lot worse..

 

[~JM~]

...Corrosion has it pitted bad enough to need to be welded and resurfaced....

What caused the corrosion?

 

[1972chevy]

I talked to John and he said that he would refund the $$ for the block so that is good. I had sent the aluminum GN1 heads to Weber to be checked out and have roller springs installed. Since they were first generation GN1s, I wanted them checked out fairly thoroughly by someone that knew what they were looking at.

Brian Weber called me and sent me the pics. Corrosion has it pitted bad enough to need to be welded and resurfaced. Total bill is estimated at over $1000 to repair, add springs & lap valves.

He charged $206 to give me that info. Kinda steep in my opinion. I understand paying for expertise, but damn!
I am NOT planning on keeping the heads. They will go back with the block.

View attachment 318085 View attachment 318086 View attachment 318087

Best case scenario, I'm out $250 and 4 hours of driving (2 trips to Cleveland). It could be a lot worse..

No one could say aluminum will not get corrosion.
Given the time it will

 

[1972chevy]

ShawnR

Sucks what you are going through

 

[ShawnR]

What caused the corrosion?

Weber dude said it was probably running straight water in the cooling system with no corrosion inhibitor.

 

[~JM~]

Weber dude said it was probably running straight water in the cooling system with no corrosion inhibitor.

That was my thought. Variety of coolant additives depending upon the engine material. Iron, aluminum, magnesium, etc.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Since they were first generation GN1s

And, they weren't cracked around the head bolt bosses?
Good deal w/ John's cooperation.. Start over w/ good parts.

 

[earlbrown]

Brian Weber called me and sent me the pics. Corrosion has it pitted bad enough to need to be welded and resurfaced. Total bill is estimated at over $1000 to repair, add springs & lap valves.

He charged $206 to give me that info. Kinda steep in my opinion. I understand paying for expertise, but damn!
I am NOT planning on keeping the heads. They will go back with the block.

I understand pricing something high as hell because you don't want to do the job (or want to sell new parts instead)


..... bud, damn! $206 for a visual inspection, drawing two arrows, and taking three pictures??? That seems just a smidge high.

 

[wb_7354]

This post annoys me. As Earl said nicer than me. $200+ WTF? Nothing more than a 5-10 minute visual needed to determine the heads needed lots of work.

John should have known the condition of that block. As mentioned should have disclosed it. I’m happy that he’s taking care of it.

Expensive learning lesson.


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[earlbrown]

As someone that helps out at a cylinder head shop I will concede one thing. It does cost money to pressure test a set of heads, do a 'suck test' on the valve job, and check for flatness.

That being said, if those pits are truly bad enough to fail the head, it will never go on the pressure test rig. The other two tests takes around 15 to 30 seconds total. That failing 'test' would be free if I were doing it. You just can't hammer someone for $200 then say, ''your head's fucked. I'll fix it and install springs for another grand''. I don't know what Webers flat rate is, but if it's $200/hour he overcharged by about 400% (THAT'S assuming he pressure tested both heads, ran them through a dishwasher, tore them apart, measured all kinds of stuff, took his time doing it, took a union break, checked for flatness, AND done a bunch of other stuff I can't imagine THEN ''just happens' to notice some deal breaking visual flaws).

It just doesn't take $200 worth of time to fail a head that won't pass a visual right off the bat.

Just to put it into perspective, we charge a little over $50 to pressure test, vacuum the valve job, check for flatness AND actually surface a head. If there's a flag or a failure, the 'work' stops and the customer is called. I put ''work'' in quotes because loading up the surfacing machine is really the only machine work with that kind of job and any flag thrown will keep a head off that machine.


Based on the pictures, the deck looks like it can be shaved flat without welding. If it takes more meat than usual, then normally the intake would have to be machined..... OR you could machine the intake surface on the heads instead. (Also known as ''two stones, one bird"). Granted, that's looking at pictures, not actually putting hands on the pits.


My guess is still that they just didn't want to do the work.

 

[1972chevy]

Once some one wanted to charge me $250 for the estimate to build an engine.
He didn't get the job. Next guy gave me a free estimate.
He did the job Lol

 

[ShawnR]

I guess I feel better knowing I'm not the only one that feels that $200 is a bit high. The heads were painted black when I go them so I stripped the paint (chemically) and used a brass brush to get everything off and scrubbed them in the kitchen sink (wife was at work). I already had removed all of the valves and bagged everything individually with labels as to what port they were in. These things were literally clean enough to eat off of.

The reason that I cleaned them and disassembled was just to look for cracks, the corrosion didn't even register to me.

Cleaning, installing springs and lapping valves was supposed to be $300+ parts, so this was kind of a "test run". I have a basic 109 block (N/A 2 bbl carb) that I was debating about actually having Weber do the machine work on (caps, line bore & bore). Pretty sure that's not gonna happen now.

I'm sure they are good at what they do, but with that in mind, they should have seen this pretty quickly. I am attaching the letter I sent with the heads. I thought I was fairly clear.

 

[DR BOOST]

It is always a good idea to ask for pricing before anything is done instead of assuming that people will do anything for free. Ive had such detailed invoices from machine shops that I swear I've paid extra for a triple shake bathroom break vs a double shake. I also don't believe that they should have stopped checking things when the corrosion was seen. If you sent them to be checked, the examination should be complete and thorough .

 

[thadeal4real]

I don’t understand you could just epoxy a hell coil or time sert in and then just use sealer on the stud ?? Where is said block I’d be interested

 

[ShawnR]

I don’t understand you could just epoxy a hell coil or time sert in and then just use sealer on the stud ?? Where is said block I’d be interested

It will be just west of Cleveland OH some day next week. Already bored .030 over and looked good otherwise. I'm just not gonna chance it.