Hey all..n00b here..would like some build up advice

[snatchSS454]

Hey all,
This is my first post but I've been lerking for a while. I own a 2000 camaro 3.8. I am in the process of building an engine(l67) for boost. It will be a 75% street 25% strip car. My current plans are:
L67 block
8.5:1cr forged diamond pistons
GTP series III rods
clevite 77 bearings(all)
arp engine fasteners/head bolts/connecting rod bolts
MLS head gaskets
p/p stock heads w/ 3 angle valve job and comp cams 105lb springs
60-1 TO4E T3/T4 hybrid turbocharger-0.6 A/R compressor and 0.8 A/R Turbine
I need bigger injectors and a cam which are the areas that I have no idea about. I would like to run 12-15psi continuously and 20 from time to time.
I have read alot on here about the 204/214 cam being a nice camshaft and was wondering if it could be used in my application(a custom comp grind with the same specs of course). People at camarov6.com seem to think a cam with more intake and less exhaust would be better, such as 114.5lsa,214 intake dur,208 exhaust dur,.510 intake lift,.496 exhaust lift. I would like to get your opinions on this! Also what lb/hr injectors would you recommend. Im shooting for 4-450rwhp. I also have a stage II transmission with an Edge 3000 stall converter and 3.42 posi rearend. Any advice you could lend would be great!
Thanks in advance,
Shane

 

[FastRegalWE2]

I'd help you out but Im new here too and still learning

 

[snatchSS454]

Well thanks for taking the time to post atleast.
Shane

 

[snatchSS454]

noone

 

[NoNos38]

I would advise you to try a camaro board...

Matt

 

[snatchSS454]

Yeah Im a member over at camarov6.com but you guys are the turbo kings over here. This is a new world that were venturing into and my project is kinda like a GN engine dropped into a 4gen camaro.
Im sure their are people here that have done swaps like this and have knowledge that I could use. my main concern is the cam, most people over there say to use a cam that favors intake, but I have done alot of searching over here and you all seem to swear by the 204/214 grind.
Just looking for a little insight thats all.
Thanks,
Shane

 

[NEARING]

I would THINK 50lb injectors would be plenty, leaving you room to grow too.

You might see how fast you go with the stock cam first?

Guy down the street from me has been 10.7x@128.x with a stocker.

Apples and oranges.

WS6formula50, did you take your GN to VMP or Richmond last year?

 

[FastRegalWE2]

Originally posted by NEARING
I would THINK 50lb injectors would be plenty, leaving you room to grow too.

You might see how fast you go with the stock cam first?

Guy down the street from me has been 10.7x@128.x with a stocker.

Apples and oranges.

WS6formula50, did you take your GN to VMP or Richmond last year?

No, I just bought it 3 weeks ago. So, I really dont even know what that is.

 

[JDEstill]

IMHO, which might not be worth a whole lot, I'd just see what kind of power you could make with a stock cam. What kinda of specs does the stocker have? You've got a roller cam from the factory, right? Setting up your car for a turbo, you've got much bigger fish to fry than worrying about the cam.

Smallish stock type cams seem to work well with turbo systems, or so I hear anyway. People have run awfully fast on the stock GN cam after all, which you've probably noted if you've done a lot of searching here. And, if you've read all those messages, you probably won't pick up any new insights by asking the question again. If you do get many responses, they'll probably fall into one of two categories - the longer exhaust duration camp, and the longer intake duration camp. It's not an issue that has been settled. And the answer for us may not be the answer for you, since the Right Answer could be dependant on other factors, such as head flow or turbine wheel and housing.

I'd say get everything else squared away, get it running, then worry about optimizing the cam.

As for injectors, yeah, something in the 50-55 lb/hr range ought to meet your stated goal.

John

 

[NEARING]

Originally posted by ws6formula50
No, I just bought it 3 weeks ago. So, I really dont even know what that is.

You in the Navy?

Do you know Red?

 

[snatchSS454]

Dur I/E-182/190
I/E-258/.255
LS-115
IC-111
Rocker Ratio-1.6
Val. Lift I/E-.413 /408

this is the stocker. I see what your saying about bigger fish and trust me Im not losing sight of all the other things.
Thanks
Shane

 

[JDEstill]

hmm that does seem a bit small, doesn't it? Although since its a roller maybe it acts bigger than it looks on the surface. Still, I bet it would run well.

One rule of thumb I remember for a turbo engine, and this was from a car mag so it might be b.s., although it sounded good to me, was to figure up the rpm range you want to run, find the duration for a N/A cam that would be a good fit for that, and then actually get a cam with about 10deg less. Say you figure you want to pull to 6000 rpm, and you'd be picking a cam with 220 deg if you didn't have the turbo, then actually buy a cam with about 210 deg. FWIW, like I say it sounded good to me.

Comp has some rollers for the GNs, and they also have some cams for turbo SBCs. You might could get the lobes from one of those cams put on a stick for your engine. Just an idea...

Low overlap, wide LSA's are probably the order of the day, with a shorter duration than what you are probably used to. The longer intake duration is kinda traditional for turbo engines, it's only lately that we've been hearing about people using longer exhaust durations. I remember Mike Licht saying that improvements in turbine housing and wheel design allowed them to move to a single pattern design cam, this was back around the time they introduced the 208/208. Just an example of how the other parts you've got will influence the optimum cam.

John

 

[snatchSS454]

Thanks for your reply JDEstill,
That gave me alot to think about. I was wondering if anyone has used one of these turbos? I have been trying to figure out when it would run out of gas, and Im thinking somewhere around 55-6K.
Thanks
Shane

 

[JDEstill]

You mean the "60-1 TO4E T3/T4 hybrid turbocharger-0.6 A/R compressor and 0.8 A/R Turbine"?

You'll get more response here if you can find out the name the equivalent model is sold under to us GN guys. I'm not sure exactly which compressor you are talking about. I've seen referenced the "T04E 60 trim", used in the TA-49, TE-44, TE-51, and TE-53. Then there is the 60-1 compressor wheel, used in the TE-52, TE-54, TA/TE-60, TA/TE-61, and TA/TE-62. All of those turbos differ by which turbine wheel they have. If you can figure out which turbine wheel you are looking at, then you get the common name for that turbo that everyone here knows, then you'll get a lot of responses on how well that particular unit works with our size engine. Here's a chart with the names and wheels for several common GN turbos: http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turbowheels.html

I wanted to ask you - the block you are working with, the RWD drive block - is it basically the same as the FWD drive block that is supercharged? What's the difference? Engine mount locations and trans pattern? Can you physically bolt on the supercharger parts from the GS, etc...? I looked around on a couple of sites and didn't really see anyone state what the differences are between the FWD and RWD blocks.

John

 

[rbeas]

Hi Shane! Stop getting faster, I already have a long way to catch up.


-Rob
Wicked 3800 V6

 

[snatchSS454]

Ok,
First, let me say thanks for your help! Second, Im am gonna have to do some research on which turbo is referenced with you Gn fellows. Third, the shortblock that I purchased is from a Pontiac GTP sidemount, front wheel drive, supercharged car.
The engines are pretty much the same on the lower end, except for the starter position, since it was front wheel and Im converting to a rear wheel application I have to drill and tap a new starter hole. My stock block(L32) also came with 9.4:1 compression ratio where as the GTP(L67) came with 8.5:1cr. The GTP heads have the injectors fitted in them directly, where as the camaro heads have them mounted on the intake. AC and PS pump are in different places, as are the coils and coolant inlet. As for the engine mount I am almost positive they are the same but the fly wheel may have to be switched.
We are unable to direclty transplant the gtp engine(longblock) into the camaro do to hood clearance issues. You cannot bolt the supercharger from the L67 directly onto the L32 because the M90 intake would be facing the firewall. The parts are interchangeable so Im basically reviving the shortblock with forged rods and pistons and total seal rings, hardened and knife edged crank, ported cast iron L32 heads, ported L32 intakes(upper and lower), and larger injectors.
I hope that was what your were wondering. Ill get back to you with the Turbo cross reference info later.
Thanks,
Shane

 

[snatchSS454]

Garrett T3/T04E (60/.82) (#466159-5008S)
T3/T04E - Non Ball Bearing Center Section, .82 A/R T3 Turbine Housing, 76 Trim Turbine (Stage III), .60 A/R T04E Compressor Housing, 60 Trim Compressor Wheel. 4 Bolt Discharge Flange

I beleive that from these specs it would be a TA-49 or a TE-44 turbo. I am not a 100% sure on this though!
Thanks
Shane

 

[JDEstill]

That would be my best guess too - a TA-49 or TE-44 with a 0.82 turbine housing. The 4 bolt exhaust flange is something we don't have though...

You could probably call up John Craig at Limit Engineering and confirm that with him. He can also advise you on how well it will work with your combo. The TA-49 has been immensely popular with our cars over the years of course.

Sounds like this turbo you are looking at has a lot more exhaust flow capacity than what we typically run. Most people run the 0.63 turbine housing instead of the 0.82, swapping some top end for better bottom end. My impression is that the 4 bolt exhaust housings also flow more, though I'm not sure of that. If true, both of those factors would make this thing a little laggier than what most people here tend to favor. Again, John Craig is The Expert and a 5 minute chat with him will give you a lot more and better info than several hours on this board.

Since your engine is the same size as ours, unless you plan on turning some high rpms or running some major boost I think a TA-49 would suit you very well. It isn't an all-out race turbo or anything like that, it's the first real upgrade from stock for us, but is plenty to run some high 11's with. You want faster you might start looking for something bigger.

On the topic of your block, thanks for the info. Sounds like all you have to do is make provisions for the starter and you can then drop that shortblock in your car with no other mods, bolt up your heads and intake, and off you go. Yes?

John

 

[snatchSS454]

"Sounds like all you have to do is make provisions for the starter and you can then drop that shortblock in your car with no other mods, bolt up your heads and intake, and off you go. Yes?"

Well thats the way I want it to go, but sometimes thing dont go as planned. In theory it seems that easy but time will soon tell. I was wondering when the TA-49 starts to drop off(RPM wise)? From what I understood after reading your post is I will have more top end over the TA-49 due to the .82 turbine, correct? If so how far above the TA-49's RPM range will this take me. Also could you post a number to John Craig, I would really like to give him a call.
This will be intercooled by spearco and Im hoping to run 15-20psi and am looking for somewhere around 400ish RWHP/TQ. Does this seem capable with this set up?
Im hoping to be around the 11's 1/4mi with my 3000 stall and slicks.

 

[JDEstill]

John Craig/Limit Engineering
http://www.limitengineering.com/
(928) 453-7321

As for the other questions, do you have Excel or similar on your computer? Know how to read a compressor map? Check out this article:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html
At the very bottom is a link to a spreadsheet that does all the calculations you need. With that you can evaluate a compressor map for yourself, and see about what rpm/boost a given compressor will max out at. I can help walk you through it if you've got any problems with it.

I'll be interested in knowing if that new block bolts into your car easily... I always figured the FWD block would be too different in some way or another. Keep us (or at least me anyway) posted!

John