horsepower VS timing??

[Sam Colalillo]

Sam in your example i see 3 degrees gained 10mph if i read that right?

Yes 3* = 10 mph gain on average (depending on weather conditions). No other change

In regards to the turbo on our car;

The old turbo (70 HPG dual ball bearing water cooled turbo Cal had built for me) spooled fast. Toni went 9.274 at nearly 146 mph against one of TSM top competitors last year during eliminations. In my opinion that turbo was not maxed out yet becuase during some other testing I saw it make more boost than we ran on that pass. (It was close but yet not maxed out)

The new turbo (Billet 70 HPG dual ball bearing air cooled turbo from Hartline performance) builds boost even faster and has less exhaust back pressure at the same boost levels. Once I get things sorted out I should be able to get the car to the 1/8th mile faster with this trubo

 

[jasjamz]

Yes 3* = 10 mph gain on average (depending on weather conditions). No other change

In regards to the turbo on our car;

The old turbo (70 HPG dual ball bearing water cooled turbo Cal had built for me) spooled fast. Toni went 9.274 at nearly 146 mph against one of TSM top competitors last year during eliminations. In my opinion that turbo was not maxed out yet becuase during some other testing I saw it make more boost than we ran on that pass. (It was close but yet not maxed out)

The new turbo (Billet 70 HPG dual ball bearing air cooled turbo from Hartline performance) builds boost even faster and has less exhaust back pressure at the same boost levels. Once I get things sorted out I should be able to get the car to the 1/8th mile faster with this trubo

Hpq? Or hpg? I'm thinking the first because I've never heard of the 2nd one.

 

[SloGN]

The type of fuel your burning has alot to do with the amount of timing you can run. Not all fuels will tolerate the same timing.


I have only noticed gains on several cars that i have tuned that there seems to be nothing gains after about 25-26 degrees of timing.

most of the cars i have tuned was on a dyno. I understand that a dyno don't load the engine like mother nature does on the 1320. But if i take a car @ x boost and then slowly add timing and if it don't pickup any more power. I return it back to stay away from the knock gremlin.


i'm not a tuning guru either!!!!!! But i hate having to use a mop and bucket after a tuning session on the dyno










Razor

You mentioned something about EGT's and timing. Like you mentioned raising the timing kept the EGT cooler well that just means that your burning all of the fuel in the chamber. It's not actually cooling off.

The true way to tune based on EGT's (IMO) is to have the probe right out side of each port. The probe being under the base of the turbo is just to far away from the heat source and takes it a few seconds to really respond. When that happens it could be bad.

 

[Razor]

Every application is different. Issues with camshaft overlap, patterns, leakdown, oil in combustion chamber, cylinder head design, piston top design, compression ratio, etc all contribute to how much timing you can add and how it responds.

I wont even get into how exact is the interupter wheel on your motor vs mine. The tolerance on those things leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree.. best is EGT next to each ports, better would be a wideband on every port That way you can trim the fuel injector perfectly. Not even going into the individual timing that now exists..

You tune what makes the most mph per your application. Both at 1/8 and 1/4 mile marks. You look at the pickup on the back end of the track and see where your at when you make a change. Based on that data.. you know when to add and when to stop.. and when to go back to where you started.

I wont get into personal vs customer tune-ups. As I can get very aggressive on my own stuff but wont to a customer's.. unless he fully understands the mop and bucket are coming out

What does this all mean, 28 psi and 24 degree's on turbo X your motor might be done.. vs identical build on another car.. maybe 32 PSI and 25 degree's.

These numbers get worked one systematically watching everything.. and everytime it stops making power.. figure out the next logical mechanical/tuning step.

 

[Sam Colalillo]

Hpq? Or hpg? I'm thinking the first because I've never heard of the 2nd one.

woops,
Yep, you are correct.
HPQ is what they are.

 

[SloGN]

Every application is different. Issues with camshaft overlap, patterns, leakdown, oil in combustion chamber, cylinder head design, piston top design, compression ratio, etc all contribute to how much timing you can add and how it responds.

I wont even get into how exact is the interupter wheel on your motor vs mine. The tolerance on those things leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree.. best is EGT next to each ports, better would be a wideband on every port That way you can trim the fuel injector perfectly. Not even going into the individual timing that now exists..

You tune what makes the most mph per your application. Both at 1/8 and 1/4 mile marks. You look at the pickup on the back end of the track and see where your at when you make a change. Based on that data.. you know when to add and when to stop.. and when to go back to where you started.

I wont get into personal vs customer tune-ups. As I can get very aggressive on my own stuff but wont to a customer's.. unless he fully understands the mop and bucket are coming out

What does this all mean, 28 psi and 24 degree's on turbo X your motor might be done.. vs identical build on another car.. maybe 32 PSI and 25 degree's.

These numbers get worked one systematically watching everything.. and everytime it stops making power.. figure out the next logical mechanical/tuning step.

I agree.


Talking about the tolerance on the interupter rings now thats another different issuse all together.


I have a bhj unit and i have checked it and it's spot on. But what you might be surprised at is the reactivity of the crank sensor! don't always think it's a balancer/interupter ring issuse. I have swapped out crank sensors and verfied the timing and have it change when i changed the sensor!



Using a xfi one can compensate for it. but the stock ecm guys can't. I have suspected it for a few yrs and till i seen it with my own eyes i couldn't believe it

i can remember reading threads like replaced crank sensor and now i can get rid of KR.


But remember guys i'm just a amauter @ this so please excuse any of my knowledge

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

Using a xfi one can compensate for it. but the stock ecm guys can't.

The stock '148 ECM has a base timing setting in the calibration. So any offset in the base timing can be corrected.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[SloGN]

The stock '148 ECM has a base timing setting in the calibration. So any offset in the base timing can be corrected.

RemoveBeforeFlight

i understand that too. but how many people burn there own chip to make this change?

 

[ROYAL_6]

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[TURBOPOWERED68]

I have a bhj unit and i have checked it and it's spot on. But what you might be surprised at is the reactivity of the crank sensor! don't always think it's a balancer/interupter ring issuse. I have swapped out crank sensors and verfied the timing and have it change when i changed the sensor!

Using a xfi one can compensate for it. but the stock ecm guys can't. I have suspected it for a few yrs and till i seen it with my own eyes i couldn't believe it

i can remember reading threads like replaced crank sensor and now i can get rid of KR.

But remember guys i'm just a amauter @ this so please excuse any of my knowledge

The stock '148 ECM has a base timing setting in the calibration. So any offset in the base timing can be corrected.

RemoveBeforeFlight

i understand that too. but how many people burn there own chip to make this change?

Taking what you guys said, Can one (on a budget) figure out what ever +/- the timing is and have my/your or self burn that deference into the chip???
sorry for the off topic question.

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

i understand that too. but how many people burn there own chip to make this change?

And how many check the timing and make the change to their XFI, BS3, or whatever aftermarket ECM they are using?

Using a laptop at the car vs. a desktop on the PROM burner. Or, a stock ECM with an emulator and a laptop. Lots of great DIY tuning equipment available today.

The big issue is marking the damper, getting a light out, and checking the actual timing. Which can not only be done for the #1 base, but can also be used to check the accuracy of the other two timing slots.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

Taking what you guys said, Can one (on a budget) figure out what ever +/- the timing is and have my/your or self burn that deference into the chip???
sorry for the off topic question.

Yes, as you mention, somewhat off-topic so I'll keep it short (it does have to do with spark timing ). A Moates G2 adapter in .450 wide or possibly .600 wide (need to check your ECM PROM pin spacing on the bottom of the PCB). Then some flash prom chips and a Burn 2.

That will allow you to read your current chip and flash a new one to go into the ECM. It is always best to get a spare ECM if this is a daily driver.

Tuner Pro can be used to change the settings. There is an ECU or XDF file available, check the gnttype site for it. Can't recall where I saw it exactly. Heck, on gnttype there are complete breakdowns of the not only the calibration but the actual ECM code.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[HighPSI]

And how many check the timing and make the change to their XFI, BS3, or whatever aftermarket ECM they are using?

Every one of my customers better. This is one of the first things to verify BEFORE you start tuning. We don't usually check the other cylinders, since so far, I haven't found an interuptor ring that was evenly spaced. FWIW: Since I have started doing COP conversions, I have made several discoveries about the stock wastespark setup. I will save that for another thread and let this get back on topic.

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

Every one of my customers better. This is one of the first things to verify BEFORE you start tuning. We don't usually check the other cylinders, since so far, I haven't found an interuptor ring that was evenly spaced. FWIW: Since I have started doing COP conversions, I have made several discoveries about the stock wastespark setup. I will save that for another thread and let this get back on topic.

Cal, I agree. This should be done on each and every set up. The other is a fuel pressure transducer. The issue is, it doesn't get done, and then there are problems. Which with one of these cars is a big issue.

COP systems. They are better then the stock set up. But it can be taken further. They also should be handled different then normal dwell code.

As far as interrupter rings. Why not just file each notch to the proper angle. Set the whole ring ahead until one notch is correct. Then file the other two/four to match. What I've never figured out is how much the ring would/could move from general engine flex

The ring is only pressed on. Why couldn't it move on the hub.

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