How do they compare to the T-bird Super Coupe?

[BM Computer Src]

Has anyone owned both the T-bird SC and a Buick / Pontiac 3.8L Supercharged? I can see myself getting the T-bird SC due to rear wheel drive, but I worry that the engine doesnt put out the power (being supercharged and only 210 or 230 HP)... I have owned a regular 94 t-bird with the 4.6L and liked the car a lot. I want an SC in the future, but need to know how the GM stacks up. So has anyone owned A T-bird SC and a GM Supercharged ?

Any comparisons, or opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
-Bob

 

[383LT1]

On a later Thunderbird SC manual, a guy with a couple mods ran 14.5 at 96 or so mph. Nice cars. It's a give/take comparo. The Thunderbird is intercooled but the blower is a much smaller Eaton M62 (the series II blown GM motors has Eaton M90) and the motor doesn't compare in volumetric intake to the "revvier" Series II supercharged GM motors appearing in some '95 (Park Ave and Riv) and all '96+ apps (Bonne, 88 LSS, GTP, GS). That's the way things are stock.

I think the Eaton M62 blowing through an intercooler (inevitable pressure losses) means the Eaton M62 in the Thunderbird application, even with the Thunderbird 3.8's lower volumetric intake, is closer to being maxxed out which in turn means that the quoted low 15 sec. quarter at 90 or so mph you see in magazines may at best improve to high to mid 13s on radials (my guesstimate). On the otherhand the Eaton M90 in the GM Series II 3.8 is capable of providing enough airflow-hp capacity for high 12-second timeslips at 106mph on regular radials. This may be either on race fuel/non-intercooled or pump/custom $1800 intercooler.

One big snaffu for the GM camp. The 4L60E and 4L65Es on the FWD GM cars are at their limit with these Series II S/C motors STOCK. I think the Ford 3.8L is mated to a tougher or at least commonly upgradable automatic trans. And the manual trans as in many cases should be able to take gobs more engine output provided the shifts are not abusive and a higher capacity clutch is used. The rear end is a standard Ford 8.8 which is very upgradable.

Yeah, it's not a clear-cut victory either way. It may just come down to RWD vs. FWD as you mentioned. Do you want a poor man's 8-series BMW/gentleman's Mustang? Get the Thunderbird SC. Want a practical family/luxury sedan with spice/the ultimate way to make a ricer owner feel bad nuff to trade in their buzzy 4-bangers? Get the Buick Regal GS or Grand Prix GTP.

 

[6-FITZ]

They're both nice cars. Something about 6-bangers getting the job done in a world of ricers and big scary 8's. T-birds make good tq. down low and that's about it. They fill quicker than they really are. Raced a tt-bird w/ my SHO he beat me from a dead stop but it was'nt too long before I caught him. On a kick-down race he got the smack. As for the w-body twins they're a better car all-around unless you have a problem w/front wheel drive. More upgradeable for better results, faster from a stock point, and smoother,stronger engine that won't break. The tranny however will need beefing to keep up w/ a modded engine.

 

[BM Computer Src]

Thanks for the info, guys. I think I still like the ability to put a good converter and drop some ET's, as well as the ability to put a different rear gear in the t-bird. Since I work on my cars, I have tried to avoid front wheel drive at all costs. It's a shame these GM's are all FWD, or I would not debate it at all... Since I am looking for a daily driver, I don't plan on going to different superchargers or anything, I just want something with some torque...

Hope GM is listening!

-Bob

 

[FYN WHYN]

I had a '95 5spd SC. It was a nice car. Only had a couple of engine
mods, but the best thing I did was replace the 2.73's with 3.55's.
That REALLY made a difference. After the gears I only had two
races that I can remember, but easily kept up with an LT-1 'bird
and a twin turbo stealth. Would probably still have it, but the
motor let loose at 39K ( Ford took care of me ) and the Lightning
came out.

Now I have the GS, and I just love it. Have always loved Buicks,
but didn't think they had anything to hot these days. Boy was I
wrong. It's AT LEAST everybit the performer the SC was, and with
mods, it is much more. I don't worry about modding the motor
in the GS like I did the SC ( headgasket probs ). The GS does have
a weaker tranny, but I don't worry too much about that. I was
surprised at the handling on the GS, and I don't really miss the
RWD of the SC ( and a LSD will soon help the GS ). Also, it's nice
to know that you can drive the GS in any weather ( snow ), where
the SC can be a handful. Plus, it's a BLAST to blow people away in
the GS!

Dave

'00 GS ( MSP CAI, RAT DP w/ custom exh, 3.4" pulley mag snout)
'92 AWD Laser
'00 Civic SI

 

[Scott Long]

Just to clear things up the Thunderbird SC has an intercooled Eaton M90. It runs about 12 psi stock whereas the pontiac hits maybe 6-7 because its non intercooled, wrong wheel drive (hard to launch). They have a little bit more HP, torque I think is similar to the SC, but they weigh less. The SC w/ me in it and a tank of gas is like 4165 lbs.

I have 2 SC's, and am looking for an 87 GN.

 

[TRYMY231S]

My friend had a modded '92 SC a couple of years ago. I say had because the first time he took it to the track with some sticky tires he blew up the IRS, broke his axles, and *ucked up the rear. He was hoping for mid to high 13's. We raced all the time (against the GTP) and he'd always win on the street and I'd win at the track.

I'd go for the W-body; a few minor bolt ons and you're in the 13's. Both cars are very comfortable and handle excellent, but the W-body is better in the snow.

One thing I'd have to say about his SC is that the supercharger screamed compared to my GTP's. We called it the Banshee.

And btw, he had an M62, not M90. The later years had them, I wanna say 95+.

EDIT: His car was a stick.

 

[wh1-Denver]

Bob, Get the GS It rocks plus it is a BUICK not a Fix Or Repair Daily. I am getting ready to move back to the St. Pete / Tampa Area in the next couple of months and will bring my wife’s 03 GS by to let you check it out. She bought the Direct Scan from you at Christmas time for a gift for me. There are tons of aftermarket parts that you can buy and hopefully if you get into them you can develop a chip burner or something similar to DHPs system. I plan to buy the Turbo 6 Tuner for my 86 T-Type once I move back. I spoke to you on the phone a few times and look forward to meeting you. Do you still have the TTA?
Take care
Mike

 

[98GSMN]

A guy I work with has a 90 SC , I killed him stock. Plus you get 4 doors, cops don't bother you, and one of the best sleepers around. As you can see in my sig I have some issues with launching my car.

 

[GNocide]

gm all the way, 2 or 4 door gp or regal will win everytime. my neighbor has the turbo 5 speed he gets owned bone stock. with a 3.4 pulley and intake the gm 3.8 will do 14.4 - 13.8 with good gas and tires. i whip superchargered/intercooled supercoupes all the time at the drags plus the rear drive mustangs 4.6 v8s with out any intercooler.

 

[BM Computer Src]

Originally posted by wh1-Denver
Bob, Get the GS It rocks plus it is a BUICK not a Fix Or Repair Daily. I am getting ready to move back to the St. Pete / Tampa Area in the next couple of months and will bring my wife’s 03 GS by to let you check it out. She bought the Direct Scan from you at Christmas time for a gift for me. There are tons of aftermarket parts that you can buy and hopefully if you get into them you can develop a chip burner or something similar to DHPs system. I plan to buy the Turbo 6 Tuner for my 86 T-Type once I move back. I spoke to you on the phone a few times and look forward to meeting you. Do you still have the TTA?
Take care
Mike

Sounds good Mike, I look foward to meeting you. I do still have the TTA. It recently went 11.93 @ 113 MPH with 16 psi on the stock turbo. It was a good day.

Thanks for all the details, guys.

 

[mike85gn]

Here's a weird on, I was at the track yesterday and watch a Jetta of all things kick a lot of ass. Had a new downpipe, chip, intake, and intercooler and was running 13.5's on pump gas. That 1.8T is one hell of a nice little engine! But for the current question, my personal fave and hopefully future daily driver would be a 2-door GTP, I like them much more than the SC or TC 'bird. Fast and good in the snow!

 

[Scott Long]

ALL THUNDERBIRD SC'S HAD AN EATON M90 ON THEM 1989-1995. They never made an SC after 95. Do some research. M62's came on GM cars pre-97 such as the bonneville SSEi. Check out www.sccoa.com for some info about the SC. We now have a handful of 11 second SC's with the IRS, M90 blower (welded and ported), and nitrous. One guy was running 11.91 with no nitrous, added a 90 shot and ran 11.12 and then sold the car. The fastest now is like 11.05 with nitrous, but once this new whipple kit is released we will see some 10 second SC's this year. How many 10 second GTP's or GS' are there? Hard to get those fwds and trans to hold up for that kind of performance.

 

[Bluto]

How many 10 second GTP's or GS' are there? Hard to get those fwds and trans to hold up for that kind of performance.

Well there a bunch of GTP's and a couple GS's, and how many SC Tbirds are currently in the 10's?

I love the SC Tbirds. I have always been a Ford guy. I loved my SHO. Too bad they didn't keep an SC'd car in the TBird class. I would probably be driving a Ford.

But to say there's gonna be 10 sec T-birds I believe that when I see it.

Scott,
Are the SC Bird mods similar to the GM SC mods?
Do you guys swap to smaller pullies ect...?

 

[Scott Long]

yeah we put smaller pullies on our superchargers. I have a 2.85" pulley on my 92 SC. It makes around 15 psi in gears 1-3 with a stock intercooler but I can feel the computer pull timing.

just recently a guy put a whipple 2300 on an SC, made a manifold to fit it and will be selling it as a kit. On a stock sc w/ exhaust he put down 288 rwhp but had to let off around 4400 rpm since he was running out of fuel and going lean. So to benefit the whipple we'll need a 255 pump and at least 42 lb injectors. He was running a front mount IC also but when the car is stationary I doubt you'll see full benefit of it.

So some of these guys that are laying down almost 400 rwhp w/ a ported and pullied M90 on their SC can swap to this whipple and put down more boost more efficiently, cut the intake temp, and watch the horsepower jump to around 450-475 at the wheels. I truely believe we will see some 10 second stock block SC's this year w/ the independant rear suspension.

here's a pic of my bird if you'd like to see it, its lowered w/ eibach springs and has a set of 17" cobra wheels on it.

http://members.tccoa.com/slong92/sc/cobras1.jpg

 

[Bluto]

Very Nice T-Bird.
Very stealthy.

 

[Drac0nic]

far as it goes if you're wanting something as a DD go with the Buick. I've heard quite a few people say that they've had probs with super coupes and head gaskets. The other reason is it's a Buick man, and as they say "go fast with class" which means you'll get a lot of creature comforts with the Buick. In my opinion if you're willing to go to the trouble the Supercoupe is probably worth it. On the topic of turbocoupes since it was brought up, those 2.3Ls would be a good choice to throw into some sort of super light car or a dune buggy, the T-bird's just too heavy for em in my book. The bottom end on one is near indestructable, they're like a RWD K-car engine. If I don't end up with a TR, I'm gonna get an XR4TI Merkur, hell I may try to get both =)

 

[Scott Long]

The turbo coupe is a lot lighter than the SC. The 89-97 mn-12 chasis tbird is about 3800 lbs w/o driver and no luggage, empty gas, with a 5-speed. The auto's were heavier, plus if you get options like moonroof, and stuff. I took the spare and jack out of mine to help lighten up the load. The gears really helped it feel lighter.

The 2.3 turbo is another motor ford choked off at the factory. Just by increasing the boost with a simple home made boost valve it feels like a different car. The mods are similar to those of the turbo buicks, bigger down tube and exhaust, larger turbo, port and polish head, bigger valves. more aggressive cam, gears, slicks, and I'd get a 5-speed TC so you can launch with boost. I've seen a couple in the 11's with the 4 banger. They are on the fox chasis like the mustang.

Another thing, about the head gaskets on the 3.8L SC motor, anytime you use an iron block w/ aluminum heads and throw boost into the mix, you will have issues. Mine lasted 182k miles on my 90 SC. I did the repair myself, instead of paying someone $1500 for the labor. I spent maybe $400 for parts, head milling, ported and polished mildly done in my garage. I also bought all new hoses, belts, cleaned up everything that came off, painted everything, (pullies, brackets, supercharger, throttle body, intercooler tubes, intercooler, etc....)

http://www.sccoa.com/member/images/long33.jpg

 

[steveX]

I can tell you one thing, once you sit in a buick your going want to junk all them fords.

 

[Scott Long]

Actually the SC has the best seats of any car I've ridden in. Its got 6 way power adjustable, power adjustable side bolsters, and power lumbar support (no knob to crank like a gm).

My friend had a 99 GS and it was really nice, white over gray w/ maroon leather, heated seats and moonroof. It was a very quick car and had no trouble turning the tires over. I hated the exhaust on it, sounded like ****, it was stock. He'd floor it and you'd go "who's blowing air through a straw?" It'd sound a lot better with some borla's or flowmasters and a high flow cat.

Another buddy of mine had a 99 GTP 2-dr. It was a nice car and just as quick as the GS which would beat my auto SC in the 1/4 mile by about a car length. (although the GS has weight advantage and more hp stock but less torque). Till the speed limiter kicked in at 126 and I'd go flying by waving at them.

I didn't like the big radio buttons and numbers I could tell they were for old people with bad eye site, but it's not very hard to switch to an aftermarket head unit. Also the digital boost "meter" is junk. I'd be getting a pillar pod and a guage ASAP. I could actually see owning a GS myself, but i'd have to be black on black leather. Then I'd paint the lower body black to match and change the stock wheels for some polished aluminum wheels, lower it, and mod the hell out of it. Should make a nice daily. I prefer the 4-drs over the 2-dr. even in the GTP. Although it would have been neat to see buick make a GS 2-dr. true to the heritage of the GS cars from early 70's.

I will have a T-Type or GN first, then I'll look for a late model GS. I don't have a problem with Buick. My family has owned many although they have all been LeSabre's and Park Ave's. I love the luxury and style but to have some punch to back it up such as the performance buicks have! Thats why I don't own a mustang or a camaro. Because my TBirds have dual power black leather seats, one has a moonroof, they have roomy interior, comfortable ride, and power to move. I love classy cars with balls!