Is ZDDP needed with billet roller cam?

[Tom Tom Turbo]

I've finally got the engine put back together and I'm trying to figure out what oil to run. I used to run Rotella, but I've heard all of this supplement stuff now, and I'm wondering if the additives are needed for the billet rollers or just the flat tappet cams.

 

[L8TRH8R]

I use Mobile 1 15/50 synthetic with my roller set up. You can use whatever you like with a roller, zddp no longer a necessity for you!


Bacon curtains sizzlin'

 

[Nick Micale]

That is a good question that has not yet been addressed here on this board.

Most of my comments will be disputed by owners that drive their cars on the street and see minimal performance and RPM and have over 100K on their original engine. A billet cam means serious performance, and if some want to waste their $$$ on synthetic oil, they can do so.

First, Rotella is a diesel oil, and will work good for engine break in IF you add ZDDP for proper wear protection. There are 2 issues using Rotella for everyday driving in a performance Buick.

One, it has way too much detergent which counteracts the anti-wear additives.

Second, it is NOT formulated for high RPM use. My Cummings runs between 2000-3000 RPM, but mainly at the lower figure. At twice that RPM range, you will have oil foam which does not lubricate well.

Just to mention flat tappet cams going flat, this was a BIG problem in the late 90's, not just in Buicks, but all the aftermarket performance models. This was a cam problem in most all cases. In the hundreds of Buick V-6 builds we have done, only 3 customers have reported cam/tappet failures, and all used Mobil I.

A roller tappet cam, either hydraulic or solid, use more spring pressure and sees more RPM than a flat tappet. [And more often!:biggrin:]

The wheels and small roller bearings see LOTS of pressure/loading which can and does cause failure. I have also seen the billet cam lobes with excessive wear.

With all that said, why would you NOT want the best lubrication/protection for an engine build in the $10K+ range?

There are now many speciality oils for performance engines, or just a good brand and add ZDDP for less $$?

Since the "benefit" of synthetics oil is longer time between changes does not fit a performance engine, especially one with forced induction, you are much better off changing the contaminated oil after 1000 miles or so.

I know others will have a different opinion, but this is what has worked for me and many of my customers over 25 years in the turbo Buick world!

 

[L8TRH8R]

I change my oil every 200 miles or sooner regardless of conventional or synthetic oil use. I was using Lubra Moly 10/60 but at 12 a quart every couple weeks, plus no detergent seemed like going backwards. Mobile was used in this car since new, so ive used it my last two changes, Lubro Moly all other changes, what I will run once it's in is Joe Gibbs synthetic, Mr. Kirban and many others have confirmed that there is no need for ZDDP with J. Gibbs. I've got 2025 on my new build with 14 oil changes... Gonna change it again today! Also, from what I've read, the 15/50 Mobile 1 has the 2200 plus ppm, the others do not, that's what Mr. Gibbs crew chief recommended I use until there oil arrived... ;-)


Bacon curtains sizzlin'

 

[vacuum 6]

Nick likes to run 20W50 for his engines. I'm a believer.

Valvoline.com > Products > Motor Oil > Racing Motor Oil > VR1 Racing Oil (VR1)

 

[L8TRH8R]

That is what we used for break in! I'm not saying Nick is incorrect by any stretch of the imagination, I know he knows more about these motors then I, these are just my findings from MY research/travels. Our build turned out okay I think, I'm doing my best to keep it together!


Bacon curtains sizzlin'

 

[Nick Micale]

I change my oil every 200 miles or sooner regardless of conventional or synthetic oil use..........! Also, from what I've read, the 15/50 Mobile 1 has the 2200 plus ppm, the others do not, .. ;-)

WOW! Every 200 miles or sooner changing oil will keep that engine like new during your lifetime!

The current Car Craft mag has an article on "Flat Tappet Cam" break in and list that Mobil I 15W-50 has zinc at 1324 ppm and phosphorus at 1297 ppm. That is the good part of the story, but no mention of the amount of detergent? There are other factors that need to be considered when choosing an oil.

For example, what NASCAR needs for 500 miles at 200 MPH is not necessarily what a drag car or street car needs, or should have.

Long life oils have more detergent for longer service, but this is detrimental in a performance engine as it wipes the zddp wear additives of the surfaces where it is most needed.

 

[L8TRH8R]

WOW! Every 200 miles or sooner changing oil will keep that engine like new during your lifetime!

The current Car Craft mag has an article on "Flat Tappet Cam" break in and list that Mobil I 15W-50 has zinc at 1324 ppm and phosphorus at 1297 ppm. That is the good part of the story, but no mention of the amount of detergent? There are other factors that need to be considered when choosing an oil.

For example, what NASCAR needs for 500 miles at 200 MPH is not necessarily what a drag car or street car needs, or should have.

Long life oils have more detergent for longer service, but this is detrimental in a performance engine as it wipes the zddp wear additives of the surfaces where it is most needed.

This is why I change it so often! My engine builder an I agree as soon as you've made boost 15+ times in excess of 20psi your oil is pretty much cooked. With the Lubro Moly 10/60 the car idled HOT at 40-45psi minimum. Usually 45-50 which I felt for a car I drive often on the street that was excessive. Then I tried the Mobile 10/30 and the motor really liked it, it almost seemed as if things happened faster, it's to slippery though and lasted about 2 hours! Then tried the Mobile 15/50 as it was 4.99 at O'Reilly then at Napa, so it was a deal. I'll try the VR1 today!


Bacon curtains sizzlin'

 

[L8TRH8R]

^ of course I'm meaning for 10-11 seconds at a time.


Bacon curtains sizzlin'

 

[Tom Tom Turbo]

Ok so now I'm confused again....do I run a synthetic or not? If not, should I still add some type of supplement? My car will see 1500-2000 cruising miles per year and maybe 4-5 test and tune trips at the track. To me it sounds like I'm wasting money on synthetic.

 

[Nick Micale]

I fully agree with that answer/decision!

 

[Pronto]

I always thought the reasone for sythetic was it has a higher burning point so it doesn't coke up b/c of the turbo?

 

[Nick Micale]

I always thought the reasone for sythetic was it has a higher burning point so it doesn't coke up b/c of the turbo?

Engine oil temp follows coolant temp, maybe a few degrees more with higher RPM.

You can research the actual numbers, regular motor oil is good to about 500 deg. before coking, synthetic about 40-50 deg. more.

Of course your engine will never get close to those numbers, so maybe that is why I have never seen a GN turbo "coke up"?

Maybe the factory thought it would be better to use an oil cooler on the 1986-7 GN's to play it safe with the turbo oiling?

Have seen original turbos with over 150K miles still doing well with never having used synthetic oil.

 

[phillyturbosix]

I've also heard from some local engine builders they are seeing wear in roller cam set up's as well. Metal to metal is metal to metal no matter how you chalk it up. Brad Penn and a half bottle of ZDDP keeps my levels up perfect. I have my oil tested every change. Like Nick said your going to spend all that money on an engine why not just run the ZDDP for that extra comfort level?! It's sure cheap enough considering what a rebuild costs!

 

[Ed Valvo]

Of course your engine will never get close to those numbers, so maybe that is why I have never seen a GN turbo "coke up"?
QUOTE]

We never stay WOT long enough to coke up the oil in a turbo. What are the oil temps in a pushed hard turbo buick engine anyway? Has anyone ever confirmed it going above 250 degrees F? If it doesn't, then there isn't much gain from synthetic on our cars except for quicker flowing oil on cold starts.

Personally I run 15W-50 Mobil 1 because it works for me. I do change it often for cheap insurance. I run a roller cam and also want the extra protection. Especially for the valvetrain parts that see additional spring pressures (over 3 times more!) from the roller cam kits. Nick pointed this out a while back and it made perfect sense to me.

 

[Adam Connell]

This is why I change it so often! My engine builder an I agree as soon as you've made boost 15+ times in excess of 20psi your oil is pretty much cooked. With the Lubro Moly 10/60 the car idled HOT at 40-45psi minimum. Usually 45-50 which I felt for a car I drive often on the street that was excessive. Then I tried the Mobile 10/30 and the motor really liked it, it almost seemed as if things happened faster, it's to slippery though and lasted about 2 hours! Then tried the Mobile 15/50 as it was 4.99 at O'Reilly then at Napa, so it was a deal. I'll try the VR1 today!


Bacon curtains sizzlin'

What kind of crack are you and your engine builder smoking?

Seriously though, every 200 miles? That is the most insanely ridiculous thing I have EVER read... We run our oil in our 1500hp methanol injected BBCs for 6 weeks OR until it's too saturated with methanol. We get roughly 10-20min a weekend of full throttle performance per weekend, and routinely see 220+ engine temps. We have sent oil out for analysis periodically, and every time the results show that the oil is fine minus the methanol from blow by. It doesn't get any more extreme than a monster truck engine... we literally run them until they wont run.

Do yourself a favor and send your 200 mile old oil off for analysis and see just exactly how much money you are wasting... Oil does NOT go bad, it gets dirty. I could see doing it for break in, but you seriously need to revise your oil policy asap...

Not trying to be harsh, but seriously save yourself a ton of time and money... I just couldn't let this one slide... The ONLY justification for anything like this would be for an all out max effort race engine.

 

[Phoneguy]

Richard Clark is not a fan of "plastic" oil...that is good enough for me.


Bryan

 

[Nick Micale]

What kind of crack are you and your engine builder smoking?

Seriously though, every 200 miles? That is the most insanely ridiculous thing I have EVER read... We run our oil in our 1500hp methanol injected BBCs for 6 weeks OR until it's too saturated with methanol......

I think that alcohol has blurred your vision?

After 20 passes with 116 octane leaded gas, my oil is black and contaminated, and will be glad to send it if you will use it in that BBC, and I will also send the grey crud I remove from my oil filter housing as well. :biggrin:

Too bad you could NOT let his comment slide, as it points out your lack of knowledge and experience, except for what you do on one race car.

Leaded gasoline was probably gone from the pumps before you matured, or you would have seen what residue and crud it leaves in the engine oil pan, valve covers and elsewhere even on street cars. On forced induction cars there is much more compression gases pushed into the crankcase which greatly accelerates oil contamination.

Stick around and maybe you can learn something about race cars that burn leaded gasoline!

 

[L8TRH8R]

I'll stick with my strict regimen. Maybe I'm going overboard, but, at 49$ an oil change vs. My $30k engine I'll pay the 100 a month in oil. (for MAYBE 6 months out if the year if the weather holds) It's NOT that much $$ at the end of the day... I was under the impression MOST drag racers do the same thing. (change after every track outting) Maybe if we had a ramp at the end if the strip this would be a better comparison. Most people don't build a TR to go to one show then replace 30-60% of the vehicle, like monster trucks do. Therefore, we can have a little extra oil $$$. I'm gonna go ahead and keep smoking this good "crack."


Bacon curtains sizzlin'

 

[L8TRH8R]

The blonde is my wife and that'd be the only crack I smoke....


Bacon curtains sizzlin'