Methanol Question for You guys

[NOSjohnWE4]

pumps

And as far as compatible pumps with alcohol, this is from my experience--- A BG 280 pump with 2 holley blue regulators. Yea, i know they tell you they won't work but i have used this same combo for years. And this is with pure methanol sitting all week in the tank, fuel lines and bowls before a weekend race.

mr. B ...so you're saying in order to run methanol or other similar fuels, you don't need the special "alcohol" pumps? does the same statement hold true for carbs. ? i've been interested in running alky in my Monte but never buy the stuff because it's always "fuel specific" and more EXPENSIVE! LOL I also believe that the N/A guys gain quite a few HP (upwards of 25 - 50 I've heard) per the cooling effects and octane of either Methanol or alcohol...does this hold true for you? thanks...


John C.
LedSLED Motorsports

 

[Taffy]

Originally posted by DonWG
Most octane tests do not take into consideration or actually negate the cooling effect of the fuel being tested. Well, isn't that one of the most important advantages of using methanol? It just isn't fair, I tell you. I'm forming a possy. Who's with me.

I have not been able to find out which one, gasoline or alcohol, has a higher latent heat of evaporation. I am willing to bet that it is about the same. Now the cars that run straight alcohol get more heat taken out cause they inject nearly twice as much over straight gasoline. My friends Pro Mod 55 on Alcohol could do burnout sessions in his parking lot for 30 minutes without overheating, and that was with no cooling system.

I think Steve was making the best point that we are comparing apples to oranges, pure alcohol cars to gasoline with alcohol injection cars. I am sure that if you mixed water and methonal and ran it in a pure alcohol car, it would not run as well.

Most folks have found that a 50/50 mix is better than straight alky in a gas car cuase the amount of alky need to cool the chamber as well as 50/50 mix would take away from the ability of the gasoline to do it's job. Gasoline has more energy per volume than alky.

Adding 50/50 is the best of both worlds for octane raising and heat control. ERIC.

 

[Alky V6]

Latent heat of vaporization for:
Gasoline .18
Nitrometh. .56
Methanol 1.17
Ethanol .93
Iso-octane .27

Not quite the same.

Specific Energy at stoich AFR:
Gasoline 2.92 at 14.6:1
Nitrometh. 2.3 at 1.7:1
Methanol 3.08 at 6.45:1
Ethanol 3.0 at 9.0:1
Iso-octane 2.9 at 15.1:1

Bear in mind nitro is typically raced at a 1:1 ratio, 40% richer than stoich and more. Methanol is typically raced at 30 percent richer than stoich and more. Gasoline is typically raced at 20% richer than stoich.

 

[Taffy]

Originally posted by DonWG
Latent heat of vaporization for:
Gasoline .18
Nitrometh. .56
Methanol 1.17
Ethanol .93
Iso-octane .27

Well spank my bottom and call me a dirty, dirty little boy. I was not even close. Looks like the alky removes more than 5 times more heat than gasoline when transferring from liquid to gaseous form.

Don, what is the Lhv (can't remember correct abbreviation) for water? ERIC.

 

[Steve Wood]

Thanks, Eric, you go the point. With the exception of Don, most of us are injecting alky in order to run more boost on the street.

In spite of Don's comments, I have seen nothing that convinces me that methanol is a practical fuel for a street driven car. If it is, then those boys sure spent a lot of unneeded stainless steel on those test cars that went up for auction a year or two ago.

Big injectors are available but I suspect the moisture that tends to accumulate in the tank would eat the fuel system out of the car in pretty short order....

Not to mention the lousy fuel mileage that would keep me stopping for a refill pretty often.

Don's statement about methanol having a higher effective octane also sounds pretty good with regard to the charge cooling effect until you consider that octane is measured on a standard test engine to the point of detonation. Charge cooling will be in effect on this engine just as own ours....octane calculation should be affected as well....it ain't.

Here's an Acrobat file with all the properties for those that are interested.

http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

I still believe Mr. B is confusing alky injection as we use it with using methanol as the primary fuel as we do in the alky classes. I checked with a few alky racer friends, they still flush their systems.

Nothing wrong with running meth as the fuel unless it is your daily driver. Then I have some serious doubts.

 

[Alky V6]

What many may not realize about the octane testing procedures for alcohol fuels is that since alcohol fuels chill intake air significantly, the CFR (Cooperative Fuel Research) octane test on alcohols requires special test equipment to reheat intake air, especially for the MON test, a procedure which nullifies alcohol's charge-density advantages and also produces octane ratings that are probably lower than those of alcohol running in a real situation where the cold intake charge would tend to lower peak combustion temperatures and reduce the propensity of an engine to knock. This is evidenced by the fact that generally a race engine on gasoline is limited to a 16:1 compression ratio and an engine on alcohol is limited to 19:1. I have seen a few figures that put alcohols true octane rating at 127-136 RON. I'll try and find what the heat of vapor for water is after work. Just to be clear, I would never recommend using alcohol as a primary fuel for the street. It is just too high maintenance.

 

[Steve Wood]

Thanks for that information, Don. I had not seen that. I have seen statements that alcohol was close to 120 but have never seen it listed so in any documentation. I agree that it certainly seems to perform better but I always put it down to charge cooling.

For a race car, only, I tend to agree with you. I am not sure why more have not tried it. But, I would flush it after each week end...just to be sure.

Are you using the VP methanol with lubricant added? I think I saw that they sell the additive separately.

 

[mr.b]

I have read figures from 130-160 for an octane rating on alcohol. But i do know if i ran 98 octane (this is what someone said alcohol was rated at) my motor would not be together right now. So if you believe that 98 octane stuff, more power to you.

here is a link that says the octane rating is 140-160

http://www.hpt-sport.com/gasclass.htm

Secondly, someone was asking questions about my alcohol setup. It is an out of the box hp950 holley alcohol carb. I put on bowl extensions and plugged the power valves and changed the jets for that. Two plain old blue regulators and a BG 280 fuel pump. Fuel volume is fuel volume. The only place you really need the high dollar belt pump is with the injection systems (toilet bowl etc.) since they require a higher and varying fuel pressure.

The top lube i use is alchy brand (this is the top lube sunoco uses). I would say 95% of the racers i come into contact with use it.

Someone also made a point about the vent in the system, which is something I take very seriously.
My car always stays capped up (the fuel vent) until right before i make a run and then i plug it back up. Because yes, alcohol loves water!! Have you ever noticed you cant find 100% pure alcohol, because it is almost impossible to compeletly seperate is all out.


Futhermore, I have said it once and I am saying it again, I KNOW YOU ARE NOT RUNNING STRAIGHT ALCOHOL THRU THE FUEL SYSTEM. I have looked at your alchy kits and understand it is injected in seperately, I can read and look at pictures and understand what is going on. So quit saying I don't understand what is going on.

If you know guys who are flushing their system every week, then they are wasting there time or doing something wrong. I can let it sit over the winter with no probs. But you need to have it sealed air tight. Which i do. Kinda like laying i piece of raw steel out in the rain, it would probably rust, wouldn't it? Of course I have always found it is real easy to find someone doing something wrong vs. someone who is doing something right (especially at the dragstrip).

 

[Taffy]

Originally posted by mr.b
I have read figures from 130-160 for an octane rating on alcohol. But i do know if i ran 98 octane (this is what someone said alcohol was rated at) my motor would not be together right now. So if you believe that 98 octane stuff, more power to you.

here is a link that says the octane rating is 140-160

http://www.hpt-sport.com/gasclass.htm

I went to that website. I can not figure out how he came up with his calculations on mixing alky and gas to get the BTUs that he came up with. He said that mixing alky and gas gets more HP. By his calculations (which I do not agree with) it should make 17 percent more HP than straight gas.
Many people on this board, atleast one with a dyno, have said that alky addition does not make more horsepwer than race gas alone. Very interesting stuff on the 2 strokes though. I have a 440 Kawi Jet Ski, maybe it is time to make it faster. ERIC.

 

[Steve Wood]

Originally posted by mr.b
First of all I don't have a gn but i always loved them. I do bracket race a 230" dragster on methanol and was wondering why don't you use racing methanol? I get it for $1.85 a gallon and it seems like it would be right up your alley? It is 99.95% pure and i run it straight with no problems (has top lube mixed in it). This is just a question I was wondering about. Also, why do you mix water with it? This is just diluting it and bringing down some of the increased octane you could gain 100% alcohol? Just questions guys, not trying to start any flames!

and

I believe we (race cars and your turbo cars specifically) benefit more from pure alcohol instead of a mix. Since methanol has a higher heat of vaporization, it is not applicable for just any engine out there. A higher compression ratio (i.e. more heat energy) is needed to vaporize it. In my case, a compression ratio of 13.75:1, in your turbo cars, turbo boost pressure. All I see the water doing is lowering the egt's, which will help in preventing some detonation. This is why diesel tractor pullers use water injection. The only thing is the methanol will raise your octane significantly and cool the intake charge, but the water will not raise your octane rating (and you aren't burning as much fuel). I am just looking at the facts that pure methanol gives you two benefits and the water mix is detracting from its full effects. Also, I wouldn't be too concerned with the corrosivness of methanol. I race every weekend and let this stuff sit in the car all week and have never developed any problems (along with thousands of other racers across the US). As long as there is a good top lube in it and you aren't sending it through rubber lines or non-compatible injectors, which most of you aren't, there shouldn't be any problems.

One final note, I am not trying to get on here and be Mr. Know-it-all, I am just asking questions and maybe trying to point out some things I have learned that would benefit your cars. From what I have read on your board, the only reason the mix is better is because everybody else does it that way. I see this at the race track all the time. But, if there is some technical reason it is better, let me know, I am always eager to learn new things!!

The presumption, as I read it above, is that we should fill the tank with methanol and run it just like you do...then you confuse the issue by asking why we add water and dilute it which indicates to me that you did not understand that we inject it into the intake tract as a means of removing heat rather than being primary fuel. You cannot equate your race car with our turbo cars unless you specify race cars.

Once again, our fuel systems will not handle methanol unless modified to sealed race car systems. With the exception of Don, who spent a lot of time developing his system to run well on Methanol, the rest of us inject a mist of alkys of various kinds, and some times, water, to act as a chemical inter or after cooler. Gasoline is our primary fuel. Perhaps we should be injecting propane or similar?

If you had specified race car use, you would have more impact but your question regarding why we dilute with water shows you did not understand what is going on with our cars, in general. No problem with that.


That was an interesting site and old George certainly stated that Methanol is 140-160 octane. He did not offer any explanation as to how he came to that range or why the number might vary by 15%. Sounds like an apparent number extrapolated from some experience. Whether it is a valid number or approximation, who knows? One does not have any basis to judge the range.

I think that most of us would agree that methanol has some potential for race cars if one wants to go to that extreme. The other 95% of us will continue playing with our systems and running near racing fuel boost levels on the street every day without spending much money for a new fuel system and four times as much for fuel.

 

[ijames]

As John Estill's calculations show, water and alcohol give similar cooling effects on paper (pure methanol is best but not by much). The water has a higher heat of vaporization but a lower vapor pressure so less of it can evaporate before the compression stroke. Distilled water is a lot cheaper to run, so lots of guys just use that. I've read that in WWII they used 50-50 mostly because they needed the acohol as antifreeze on the airplanes, and since they were using 50-50, going ahead and using pure methanol wouldn't have been much more trouble. I think that that is pretty good evidence that it isn't better when used in small quantities relative to the gasoline for charge cooling and detonation suppression.

 

[Steve Wood]

Carl, it has been commented that the addition of a little water into methanol made it very corrosive. Yet, I thought I recalled that a little water actually decreased the corrosiveness. Do I have it backwards?

 

[mr.b]

Mr. Wood, why bring up the very first post I wrote? Looks like it has gotten a little personal for some reason, oh well.

Anyway, I have stated twice now that I understand you are injecting the alcohol mix in separately but for some reason you haven’t read this, why not? Nothing to bash on if you did? Also, in the very first post you just now brought up, did you read were I said, “As long as there is a good top lube in it and you aren’t sending it through rubber lines or non-compatible injectors, which most of you aren’t, there shouldn’t be any problems”. Since you didn’t catch on to what I was saying, this means I know you are not sending it through the injectors you have (non-compatible) and the rubber lines you have (you know, the factory fuel system of a turbo Buick, metal and rubber). This must mean I understand that it is being injected in separately!!!!

Secondly, how can I not equate my race engine with your boosted engine? They both create excessive heat for standard pump gas so they both need a “racing fuel” to help combat detonation. Unless your car can run on 93 octane alone on 20+ pounds of boost with no knock? Also, if you read the specs. on alcohol you would have noticed its high heat of vaporization. We both put out a lot of heat (me static compression, you elevated boost) so this fuel is right up our alley (takes a lot of heat to vaporize it therefore cooling the intake charge). But if you are one of those people who thinks since your engine sits in a car with an inspection sticker then it is technically not a race engine, then so be it. What do you call an engine that needs racing gas? Just like the fastest street cars in the world, I am sure they run on pump gas also!

I don’t see why my question would have more impact for specific racecar use or not. My question behind the dilution was fairly simple I thought. But let me make it easier to understand. Why do you dilute a fuel with water when you could just inject it 100% pure? Water isn’t a fuel, I never new it would make your car more powerful if you injected it? Yes, I know it prevents detention, which will allow you to make more power, but it is not a fuel. My thoughts were, if you can burn more fuel you “should” make more power. Unless someone has told me wrong, I thought the object to making more power was to burn more fuel. And since alcohol will also cool the intake charge (like water) and it is a combustible fuel, wouldn’t this make more power? Does anybody understand what I am saying? All I here about is some WWII plane that injected a mix, was he trying to make more power and go faster in the 1/ 4 mile, I bet he had a turbo Buick motor in that thing too!!

And then there is the George website, boy I knew you would jump on this one. That is the first thing that popped up on my web search. Maybe you didn’t notice but there is not much info. on alcohol octane ratings. Could this be because probably less then 5% of the people in the US even know what it is? But here is another one I found for you to critique http://www.bera1.org/LA-buses.html, (if you look on web searches long enough you can find all kinds of numbers) if you have any problems with this one just call them and tell them what they need to know. But I did come up with a test so you can verify your “alcohol is 98 octane” theory is. Turn the boost up to 30 lbs. on your car and run it with 98 octane gas (mix up some different octane gas to equal this number) and then (if it is still together) run pure alcohol through it and then tell me how much knock each one gave. Or, if you don’t want to do this, go to your local dragstrip then next time the alcohol funny cars are there. Tell them to run 98 octane race gas because they will make the same power with no detonation and not have to change their oil every run then! You can post what they reply to you with on here.

I have tried to be fair and reasonable, but obviously this has turned into “I know more than you” match. All I wanted to know was why wouldn’t 100% pure alcohol being injected in your car make more power than the mix. Nobody got on here and said they tried it or even new someone who tried it. But I sure was told why is wasn’t better and I had no idea of what was happening with your mysterious engines. Mostly by you. So instead of playing along (it is obvious you are just looking for something wrong with anything i write), I will just bow out and tell everyone you win, with this final note

Mr. Wood, you are my Daddy!!!

 

[Steve Wood]

You said you understood but your posts would suggest that you don't. I was merely using your words to indicate the contradiction in your statements.

I am sorry you think that it is something personal. I was trying to bring focus and reality to your comments with regard to our cars and your comments that we did not wish to learn. I understand that you may be an alcohol guru in the race car business but you clearly do not understand the composition of our fuel systems and you insist on mixing apples and oranges in your posts.

As I have stated, you make a good case for a car dedicated to the track. Don Wang has had some interesting results in his quest to run methanol and I do wonder why more have not followed his lead.

I am sorry you seem to have a chip on your shoulder and wish to take your marbles and go home. No way am I your Daddy, nor would I wish to be. I hope you find a place where everyone falls into line and accepts your posts as stated without discussion.

 

[Grant B]

Methanol injector

I am making a methanol system for my '97 Supra (T66). I've got a Shurflo 8000 80-100psi pump, which I believe can take the meth. w/o problems. I will be getting a fuel cell (probably 3+ gallons, I have a lead foot) and stainless lines. The pump will be activated by a hobbs switch.

But instead of a nozzle, I want to use a Delphi alcohol injector. They have some that are meant for throttle body injection. Supposedly you need to flush the system of alky after every race (this is a daily-driven street car though) because of water buildup (I am going to run straight meth, I don't want to argue why). I already have the electronics to drive the injector.

So Mr. B, your saying I shouldn't have a problem as long as everything is sealed correctly?
What about corrosion to the head and intake manifold? I know methanol corrodes aluminum, why isn't this a problem?

 

[mr.b]

Because the methanol i run has a top lube in it. Sunoco brand you can get with alchy brand top lube. Other brands use different top lube. Plus i make sure it is sealed up until i am going to use it. This prevents any extra water from being absorbed in the system. (I don't know about the compatible injector part though, this is an answer about the head and intake aluminum compatablility)

If you go to the dragstrip much, (during bracket races, not test and tune) talk to the guys who have used it for years and are good racers. These guys will tell you it is not as big a hassle as you hear all the time. I only change my oil about every other month, some of my fellow racers go longer than that. This is the only extra mantinence I do versus gasoline.

 

[Alky V6]

Mr. B, what are you using for fuel filtration?

To answer the question asked by someone earlier, I started out using VPs top lube, but I think I was using too much because my filters were plugging up with a scammer deposit. Almost waxy. I stopped using the top lube and really didn't notice a big increase in corrosion. I also started flushing with gasoline after any time using the alcohol. I will tell you, use anodized aluminum in the fuel system. Bare aluminum doesn't stand up very well. If you have to machine an anodized fuel fitting for what ever reason, the bare aluminum where the machining was done will start to corrode quickly. I have seen zero corrosion to the intake and heads. In the future I will be using the injectors without the thimble filters. They plug up too quickly.

 

[Alky V6]

Mr. B, what kind of oil are you using? I was using Valvoline Racing 20w-50 and then tried Mobil 1, changing it out after burning through a 55 gallon drum. Both oils started getting that milky look at that point. I was thinking of trying Royal Purple next. They tell me it's formulated to stand up to the alcohol longer than other oils. Expensive though. What are other alky guys using?

 

[mr.b]

I use a BG fuel filter with the stainless element in it. I just use regular 20-50 oil, changing it every other month. I use to run synthetic with gasoline, costs to much to keep using it with alcohol. I would rather change out the regular more often than try to run synthetic longer with increased water content. Plus, i run my oil heater 3 days out of the week to try to evaporate any built up water in the oil. My carb. doesn't milk the oil as bad as the injection systems (at least from talking to some of my fellow racers with toilet bowls). Of course, some of them don't run an egt gauge and are probably running it to rich. I talked to one guy at the strip that said he ran four gallons of alcohol in one pass, and had to be towed back!!! I can make eight (1/8') passes (warming it up each time) on 6 gallons.

 

[Alky V6]

That sounds about right. I use about one gallon per 1/4 mile run. That includes running the motor up through the staging lanes and back to the pits. What is your target EGT? I'm seeing about 1350 F at the mixture that seems to work best. 13.1 to 13.3 on the O2 sensor reading (not corrected to true ratio for the alcohol). The people at Royal Purple explained to me that, after letting it sit, the water content will separate out from their product and allow you to drain it off using a petcock at the bottom of an oil tank (dry sump). They say there is a time when the oil will have to be changed, but it will last 4 times longer than a conventional. I'm with your thinking though. As long as it's cheap enough, changing the conventional more often seems like a better idea. Plus you have fresh oil in the motor for more often. Have you tried other top lubes? I'll be giving your Sunoco brand a try when I get the engine back together. What are you setting your ignition timing at? I realize your N/A, just wondering.