More bad news....

[FJM568]

Pull one of your plugs out after you attempt to start the motor and see if it is wet with fuel or smells of gas...If the plugs are getting spark and you have good compression, then as has already been said, it should pop or try to fire off...I think you may have a fueling problem...Also, when you turn the motor over, keep an eye on the fuel pressure guage, and see what it does...

You said the car ran before you did the motor??? Was the pump hotwired before or did you put the hotwire on at the same time as you put the new motor in??? If you just put the hotwire on, disconnect it and put the stock wiring back in place and see if it starts...I think I heard that some people were having some type of problems with hotwires, and I seem to remember that the cars wouldn't run...

Just brainstorming here...keep trying, we'll figure this out...

 

[Buick From Hell]

I had a snowblower a few years ago (5 hp briggs/statton) that I put away in March, and it refused to start in November. I checked, and did everything I could to get it to start... EXCEPT changing the gasoline! I didn't give "bad gas" a thought, as it was less than a year old. After checking EVERYTHING, I finally bought some starting fluid. Fired right up, then died! I dumped the gas and put in some fresh, and it fired in 3 pulls and ran fine after that.

Bad gas could definitely be the problem! And a shot of ether will NOT harm anything, and is the best way to diagnose if bad gas IS the problem! (or not...) Just DON'T try to keep the engine running with it, as it has like ZERO octane!

 

[HOTSIX]

FJM568 - I guess my sig is a lil misleading...I have the hotwire kit in my shop but have not put it in as yet. It did run before stripdown... Had the injectors cleaned and flowed when I took it apart too.

No stabilizer in the gas ...i'm gonna dump a can of the good stuff (93) in it tonight and see what that does. All grounds checked and good. I got the orig module and coil on it now with the new 87 style with Caspers conversion plug in the trunk. Any thoughts on module ?

Any votes for not setting my TPS causing the problem ?

I'm still thinking as above: 1. Bad gas 2. Wrong Plugs 3. mixed up pink/blk wires on CCCI harness.

Anyone ?

 

[strlinmoss]

wow! I would change the gas. changing over to the late module can be tricky......some one told me the conversion harness have been known to have crossed wires. I would take a look at the Gntt-type web page and get the wire by wire diagriam for the module and double check the set up. change the gas! dont just add more.take another look at your crank angle sensor, you need to look at it and touch it and make sure the pick up is in the right place,the clearence it right. eveything starts and stop right there! another thing I have a factory service manual and it is not easy to use,but the pages that make since for now start are on the gnttype web site. all the looking for the no start info in the factory service manual it was on the web site all the time look under tech no-start i think,but its there.

 

[HOTSIX]

Hey Ron....

I got a copy of the no start charts off gnttype.org and I printed them Friday and gave um to the mechanic. He's gonna try them out tomorrow (mon). How did you get one of those service manuals ??? Are they like impossible to get or what?

Only reason I said not to change gas completely was cause it is too much hassle and PITA. My poor mechanic doesn't know these cars well so it's like a shot in the dark with diagnosis here.

I dont know anyone 'round here that knows these cars well or at all !!! GM dealer ? (ouch !!!)
That'll cost like $100 / hr. CDN...thats what they charge now.

I have triple checked the wiring and it's ok except for the 2 pink/blk wires...they might be reversed, I dont know...would this make a diff??? They are both live with IGN power (like they are supposed to be)....can't see how reversing them would cause a problem if they are .

 

[FJM568]

HOTSIX...

For the service manual, check with Lloyd's Literature at 1-800-BY-A-BOOK...they advertise in Hemming's Motor News all the time...they are who I got my 85 Buick service manual from...I bought mine like 4 yrs ago from them and it was around $100-$120 US...It covers ALL 85 model year Buicks...It's a lot of money, but you won't regret it...

As for not setting the TPS causing the problem, it might...If you can, at least have him set the low end to .42V using the scan tool, ignition on, engine off...Don't worry about the high end setting yet, just get the car running...Not actually sure if that would keep the car from starting, but set it, and rule that one out...

 

[strlinmoss]

I borrowed the service manual from a friend that was a auto shop teacher at a local collage, He's a cop now.......go figure and he gave it to me when i was having my problmes. all the stuff on the factoy service manual is on the web site......hope you tech puts on his thinking cap when he tackles the no start plan its gonna be miller time! but its gonna ask you to check most of the stuff that is already being checked in more detail. good luck and you will have some plug by plug values to check with a volt meter.

 

[cool 84]

Did I mention starting fluid or WD-40 or Toulene, or even good gas poured into a spray bottle? Rule out the fuel issue. You know you have spark and compression. The only thing you don't have for sure is fuel or good fuel. This will really simplify the trouble shooting. If it tries to start, swap out ALL the gas in the tank. You said you have pressure, so if the new gas doesn't cure it, figure out why your injectors aren't firing.

If it doesn't try to start, then start looking some place else other than fuel.

If you for sure have compression, fuel, and spark, it should start. The only other things it could be is spark timing off (don't know how that could happen). Or cam timing off. In either case it should show some sign of life. Are the plugs turning black or are they still perfectly white?

 

[HOTSIX]

Guys...I cant thank you enough for assisting me in my desparate time here.

I have some news....got to the mechanic's shop at about 4:30 today...where's my car ? Outside in the rain...it's been in and out of that garage for the past three weeks getting 10 mins of his time on each move. (at least he's pushin the car not me!) I talked to him and he is lost and frustrated. Then like I said he never worked on this type car before. I decided that it was time to go elsewhere....can't hold on longer with this.

I got recommended to another shop in town here where a decent mechanic has worked on a few 87 GN's. So...I settle up with the first guy and had it towed there right away to the second guy. He's looking at it tomorrow first thing.....and not stopping till he finds the problem....unlike first guy.

Someone suggested to me that the timing chain could be 180 out....(?) think he prob meant Cam sensor.... I told the new shop I got gas, spark and compression...so guys...that's gotta leave just one thing...timing !!! Right ? Even if Cam sens was 180 out i'd get a sputter. Maybe valves / cam / valvetrain installed incorrectly ????

I keep thinking timing timing timing......where are the cyls (ie: what # is where) and where does each respective wire plug in to the 85 coil ? I could have this wrong.

Cyls are numbered - pass. side is from Front to Rear 2 - 4 - 6 and D/ Side is Frt to rear 1 - 3 - 5 right ??? So then where do the plug wires go on the coil ?

This could be part of the problem...

I'll you guys update tomorrow.

 

[strlinmoss]

oh boy.......did'nt think about that one, that was one of my problems too. I think other guys will tell you there about 3 or 4 ways the wires can go on i didnt see it in the service manual but there is a sticker on the rad suppor to the left on the fan shoud that has the firing order, dont know why I didnt think about the before, also you could just start moving the wires around until you start getting some action, man.........hope the problem is as simple as that.

 

[HOTSIX]

One word :

INJECTORS

New mechanic looked at it today - not getting gas...everything works up to tip of the injectors...including they ALL have (flash w/ test light) pulse width and lots of fuel pressure.
SO....it has to be the injectors.

I had the originals cleaned and flow tested in the summer in preparation for the new engine and re-assembly. Mechanic (and an injector shop) tells me that the solution that is used to clean them has to be removed within 48 hrs or so or else the injectors get all seized up inside.

Most shops give um a small amount of oil to keep um fresh until installation - but mine didn't. So my shop mechanic took um off and I took them to an injector shop for re-cleaning. Guy said that they may be screwed, cause sometimes they don't come back up afterwards when this happens.

So I may be looking at rebuilt ones or possibly an upgrade....

I get um back with the results tomorrow. Let ya know.
Suggestions for an upgrade ? I'm pretty stock except cam...all mods below in my sig. Let me know what ya think.

 

[cool 84]

No fuel??? That's a surprise. I still wonder what the odds are of EVERY injector being frozen up.

 

[Buick From Hell]

Solution? They usually clean 'em with acetone, at least the shop I've used does. And I can't think of any "solution" that would cause them to seize up. And as Cool84 says, the odds of all 6 being bad? I may be wrong, but I'm skeptical....

 

[FJM568]

Even if the plug wires were in the wrong location, it would still sputter and backfire and at least try to start up...My bets would be on the injectors...

If you are even thinking of even making your car go faster than is capable with the stock setup, spend the money now on new injectors than getting rebuilt ones or stock ones that are cleaned...spend the money once...get some 009's, they will be more than enough for what you would probably ever need...and keep in mind that you will need a new chip for them...

 

[HOTSIX]

Odds of all 6 being seized ??? - really good - well, almost.

It seems I was a lil mistaken when I explained the problem here. Apparently they use a backflush type machine by a company called ANSU. When the injectors are cleaned the shop should put a drop of light machine oil inside to keep them lubed up till installation. If not, the empty injectors WILL seize up inside from being dry if not installed within a few days or so - not from the solution used to clean um.

This was re-explained to me when I picked them up 2 hours ago. No problem if you want to clean um, not lube them then just install um in ur car right away, because the gas keeps them lubricated. Guy told me that 1 injector was emitting a small bit of gas but not enough to fire. All the rest were seized up inside from being dry. Mine were cleaned in May and installed in August - so you can see the problem.

So here I wait for the shop to put um back in....waiting for the call. They all came back up to 100% flow. The original shop that did the cleaning in May put incorrect Pintle caps on the injectors also, making them loose fitting.

COOL 84 gets full marks here for his call on the starting fluid. New shop did just that and she fired. Hopefully everything else is ok and it will start right up.

 

[Buick From Hell]

Owie, my fragile ego, shattered!!

(psst--don't tell anyone, but twice I suggested using starting fluid on August 9th!)



Glad it's up and running! I'm also glad that I've learned something new about injectors! I'd like to know what's in that solution they used?

 

[HOTSIX]

Oppps sorry BFH...didn't mean to shatter....

Well, not so fast.....I get to the shop after my post...last injector going in...turn the key..and...

NOTHING

check out some stuff... cam sensor shot. Again.
Thats the second time for that. Shows voltage but no change when spun. No resistance either when it was checked. It worked an hour before...and lots before that...when I had the no gas problem. Plugged in correctly etc etc


Why do I keep blowing cam sensors ?????????

 

[cool 84]

Man, your luck sounds as bad as mine. I blew two camsensors. Once was when I mistakenly plugged it in to the injector harness (which your mechanic definately could've done). The other time was when a ground wire in the pack by the AC broke. It somehow fried the sensor. You might want to check for continuity to ground on the cam sensor plug (engine harness side). I believe it's the C terminal but it might be the A. All I know is it's not the B. I'm glad it at least did something.

 

[Buick From Hell]

Had to razz you guys!

But I have no clue to the cam sensor problem!

 

[HOTSIX]

Well, the sensor gets delivered tomorrow morning to the shop.

I'm gonna call the guy and let him in on that ground continuity tip - thx. I was thinking he might have arc'ed the connection when checking it with a test light probe end. The fuel rail, CCCI bracket and assorted other suitable ground items are right there...wouldn't be hard to do when checking the power wire. Think that would fry it ? I mean these damn things are pretty sensitive huh ?

I have great fresh grounds at my A/C bracket (a la Dremel) but I will have him check the continuity like COOL 84 suggested.

Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Anyone had this problem before ??? Someone in Gen Tech suggested it might be the ECM spiking up the voltage somehow too...