more header talk

[jlat]

hello peoples; I started another header thread because in another the question was about the best and I don't know what is.
But I have headers on my mind. Funny the word headers and that word associated with TB change. In the old days a header is a tuned tube set up taking away the cast manifold for performance. A TB stock header? manifold? are tuned? I guess you can call them headers because there tubes but I don't know. Now you got stock replacements and race. I guess the race would be a tuned set up?
Why do you think a stock setup came in SS and not just steel? I know SS will last but why the expense?
TA's come in steel anyone try them? I might give GSCA a call today but are there headers SS and is any one running them now that could add any comments?
thanks ladies and gents
IBBY

 

[Grumpy]

Stock Buick headers are junk SS.. BUT they sure do take a beating . Ya they crack just like everything else will after time.. Have some nice 321 SS headers that worked great . But after 60k miles they 2 are cracking. Nature of the beast. Also have a set of TA steel headers (thanks Nick/AZ GN) on one of our cars here. Have about 20k miles on them. Work great with no cracks yet. Bottom line sooner or later they are all goin to crack after a lot of heat cycles.. Get a good welder an fix em till the next time.

 

[jlat]

hello; I bet that's the answer to why GM made the stock header out of SS. Even though it might be a lesser grade SS after many heat cycles it probably holds up better than steel.
Now how about more info. on the GSCA headers.
IBBY

 

[SHADOWII]

I checked the gsca headman headers at the gs nats and they are ss for $550.00 a set. They sure looked and felt like top quality. I would definitely considered a set when I need them again.

 

[Grumpy]

I checked the gsca headman headers at the gs nats and they are ss for $550.00 a set. .

anyone have a picture of them ?? Was a thread over @ tb's but the guy selling them never got back with any other info.

 

[jlat]

hello; I called on the GSCA headers. No answer. I left a message and I'll be back with any info.
IBBY

 

[TurboDave]

anyone have a picture of them ?? Was a thread over @ tb's but the guy selling them never got back with any other info.

Need to know what they look like?? Just find an old picture of Poston's headers, paint them matte black and put a Hedman badge on them....there ya go.

 

[turbo nasty]

Just being honest here. I picked up and looked over a set of the Hedmans at the nats and was NOT impressed. Glad that folks took the time to make them but I wouldnt have them.
Saw mig wire slag 1/4 plus inch long in 3 ports 2 on the pasanger side and one on the drivers side as well as a loose piece of thin scrap that was barely hanging on that fell off when touched.
They have the ball and socket fit to the crossover like stock which I dont care for as it wil get tweaked and leak over time with a few R&R's. The drivers side header will suffer the same fate as stock (crack in the Y) in the long term IMO and isnt a performance style like TA's or ATR very similar to stock/Poston actually. Like I said the Headers are not impressive and the loose slag that broke off easily with just a touch would have surely damaged your turbine wheel ! If you get the Hedmans CHECK THEM OVER WELL inside!!!

As far as the Perf version of the mild steel TA's I have put 40k miles on mine and the pass side header cracked in 3 places and had it welded it back up and it cracked again. It seems the mild steels crack on the pass side and the SS ones dont have the problem. Drivers side no issues...knock on wood....LOL.... I have picked up a new pass side SS header to replace the cracked one.

 

[jlat]

hello; I called GSCA today and from what was said all problems (via customer feedback) is corrected. They have a run of like 1000 and when there gone that's it.
There's no plans for another run. Headers are made of inconel steel and sounds like good stuff. The crossover is two pc. and are a slip fit and the explanation was hard over the phone but it sounds good. They are made by Hedman and are coated with a high temp. product. I'm going to think about it for a few days but I think I'm going for them.
there $650 to your door and are shipped from Headman.
IBBY

 

[Grumpy]

I hope Hedmans coating problems have been fixed.:frown:. I'll stay with the TA stuff. Have a set of TA stockers coming for a buddys car. 1000 = 500 sets made ??? Sorry not buying it

 

[Nick Micale]

hello; I called GSCA today and from what was said all problems (via customer feedback) is corrected. They have a run of like 1000 and when there gone that's it.
There's no plans for another run. Headers are made of inconel steel and sounds like good stuff.............there $650 to your door and are shipped from Headman.
IBBY

I call BS on the statement of a "run of 1000".

Do the math, 1000 sets at ~$500 cost per set brings the total $$$$ investment of $500,000, no way that is credible? Some of the GSCA "sheep" may believe the crap published there over the years, but reasonable owners know better.

I do know a few things about the GSCA headers - Inconel is NOT stainless, also the set that was shown in NC last spring would NOT fit on a 109 engine, they had to be modified on the spot, and the MIG welds were lousy compared to the TIG job on the TA stock replacement stainless headers displayed next to them.

 

[jevans]

I recently upgraded the headers on my GN along with the other upgrades. I did quite a bit of research to what other members were running. I went with TA's Stainless Headers, with their 4 bolt flange. They're definitely on the higher end of cost than the other headers out there. The quality is good for an off the shelf, cookie cutter header. They're made out of 304ss and have a thick 1/2" flange. The flange is typically the weak point of most turbo headers. The welds are nice and the slip fit crossovers with v-bands are a nice feature.

I did have to clean up the bolt holes on the flanges to align with the exhaust ports holes, but wasn't a problem. The crossover was a bit of work getting it together the first time I installed it, but it was alot easier the second time around. Fitment was great with everything, I'm running an CSR Starter and an 3.5" Downpipe. The discharge pipe for the external waste gate was to small for the waste gate I was running, so I had to change that for my application. I ended up painting the flanges with some hi-temp paint to prevent them from rusting.

IMO, this is a great header for the money. I figured, spend a little more up front, but only purchase one set over the long haul.

John

 

[ikle]

Jevans why did you paint the header flange, I thought the whole header was made out of 304 SS f so it would never rust.

 

[jevans]

Jevans why did you paint the header flange, I thought the whole header was made out of 304 SS f so it would never rust.

The flanges are made of mild steel, to prevent warping. Actually alot of lower grade stainless will still rust a little, due to the carbon content. 304ss will do pretty well in the elements though, I typically clean mine with a scotch brite pad over the winter or if I remove them during the race season.

I have a few sets of custom headers for my other car that are made out of 321(aircraft grade). The cost for the 321 alone goes through the roof though.

321 is the ideal material for building turbo headers, due to the resistance of fatigue and cracking of the heat generated with the heat cycles of the turbo engine. I'm not aware of any companies offering an off the shelf 321ss header, most use 304, which is a good compromise.

John

 

[turbofabricator]

If the Headman headers are in fact inconel then a $550 price tag is AMAZING!!. I seriously disagree that the best header material is 321 CRES (corrosion resistant steel, as it is known in the aviation business) Inconel is by far and away a better material for high heat applications over even 321, but it is EXTREMLY expensive material. 304 is alot better than mild steel as is 409 which the factory manifolds are. 321 and 304 will darken over time, 304 will look rusty even.
There has been lots of developmental work on Turbo headers over the years but unless you have a huge budget there is VERY little gain in "tuned" headers over just a simple log type manifold. There are guys running 200+ in the 1/4 using ported stock cast iron Chevy truck exhaust manifolds.
As Grumpy stated, its only a matter of time till any turbo header will crack. I have used the TA headers with success. My only complaint about the TA race headers is the passenger side is just too close to the frame/crossmember for my liking. It runs too close to the fuel/brake lines right near the cross over v-band. (Hey Mike........how about making the lower tube just. 50" longer, pushing the bend farther back away from the front crossmember......PLEASE.) Not sure if there is any performance gain with their race version vs. street version especially on a mid 9 second or slower car.
Read up on some of this info on: burnsstainless.com

 

[jevans]

If the Headman headers are in fact inconel then a $550 price tag is AMAZING!!. I seriously disagree that the best header material is 321 CRES (corrosion resistant steel, as it is known in the aviation business) Inconel is by far and away a better material for high heat applications over even 321, but it is EXTREMLY expensive material.

I agree...321 is not the "best" material for turbo headers, but it's a afforable option above 304. For most it would still be within budget. Most headers out there fall within these lines.

Fabricating a set of headers out of Inconel, would definitely be "breaking the bank" :wink:

John

 

[ikle]

Jevans thanks for clearing that up for me

 

[grocerygetter]

Man...I went through kenne bells headers, brian's cheaper set at the time, and then after all else Brian ordered me a set of TA's in stainless. The fit was outstanding. Like right on. They run and spool great. I would go straight to the ta headers if I had to do it again.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Inconel is a key product, that is used in the Nuclear Industry, I used to machine that material everyday....... until the cold war ended.... that's some very expensive, and tough material right there.

Chuck