My Experience with Brian Lorenz "Limited87"

[Chuck Leeper]

This is fast turning into a "he said, she said" pi$$ing contest....Suggest you take to PM.

 

[EVIL]

I can see both sides but if I'm paying 18k for a TR it better be turn key, running perfect, shinny in and out and come with a blowjob.


D

 

[Mike E]

I'll deal with Brian's response, or lack thereof later. But I wanted to explain the numbers seen on some of those invoices. The world revolves around the U.S. dollar. So, not surprisingly, Americans don't have much of a concept of currency exchange.

I have Brian's address. So lets for giggles order a $115 adjustable fuel pressure regulator from Kirban's.

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/224/Billet Aluminum ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR #6547.html

I put in Brian's address, and it spits out $14.69 for shipping. OK, so that AFPR shows up on Bryan's doorstep with a receipt showing $129.69 (plus maybe some OH tax?)

Now I put my address in up here in Canada. I get $34.71 for shipping, more than twice as much. And we're at $149.71 out Dennis' door. But it gets better. Dennis used UPS, the most expensive shipper for brokerage charges. They will tack on the mandatory 6.1% duty, bringing that part up to $158.84. Now let's tack on UPS' fee for brokering the part across the border...roughly $20. Add another 2.7% for bond fees since UPS wasn't paid the duty in advance...$2.70. And we have a grand total of $181.54USD. So while Brian paid $129.69 to get the part on his doorstep, I will pay $181.54, almost 40% more. Now let's convert that to Canadian currency at a current exchange rate of around $1 USD = $0.75 Cdn. That $181.54 shows up on my statement as $242.05 Cdn. So you look at a part like an AFPR from Kirban's and expect it to cost $115. By the time I get it on my doorstep and it shows up on a Canadian invoice (the shop has to order from the States as well) the number shows up as $242.05.

The shop has to go through the same process ordering parts from the States. So there's nothing wrong with the prices of the parts I paid for...you're just not used to seeing things in Canadian dollars. The same applies to the labor rate. The shop rate is maybe $10/hr more than than a dealership. This is the premier shop within a five hour drive of where I live, and they have no problem getting clients at this rate.

So hopefully now we can move past this hang up on prices, Brian can stop trying to use it to attack my credibility, and we can move on to the real issue at hand in this matter.

I don't know you and don't know Brian, just an outsider looking in. It appears you are a very picky collector. Nothing wrong with that, but realize guys with your standards are few and far between and you can't fault someone else for not picking a car apart to the level you would. You should have done your part at the time of sale.

If there is that much difference in price up there, don't throw around that figure as an argument. At most it's a $1000 repair in the states if you pay someone else. It would have been $500 in parts to diy. You shouldn't use that figure to devalue the car you received without stating the "canada tax". Looking at pictures of the White car it looks very nice. Looking at the two tone car it looks rusty and there are random wires draped across the engine bay. It does not look like a nice car in the pictures. From what I can gather you didn't buy that car, so it's easy to speculate it's nicer. The reality is, it would also have had hidden issues and you would have been let down after purchasing it.

The Inspection report in the first post, come on. If those issues would cause an inspection issue, all but a museum original (valued well over $18K) would fail inspection. 90% of the cars here have these issues, they are typical turbo Buick problems.

 

[Mike E]

Albertan, I don't mean to come down on you. I kinda feel your pain right now. I've been looking for a nice 90-93 Mustang coupe lately and like turbo Buicks, they are hard to find in nice condition. The prices seem unreasonable for most. I had one I thought was mint from talking to the seller and looking at pictures. I was almost ready to pull the trigger before looking at it. I had envisioned something in my head for a couple weeks that was perfect. When I looked at it in person, I was severely let down because it wasn't up to my standards. I'm finding that almost nothing is up to my standards, because I envision what those cars were like when new.

 

[coach]

I don't know you and don't know Brian, just an outsider looking in. It appears you are a very picky collector. Nothing wrong with that, but realize guys with your standards are few and far between and you can't fault someone else for not picking a car apart to the level you would. You should have done your part at the time of sale.

If there is that much difference in price up there, don't throw around that figure as an argument. At most it's a $1000 repair in the states if you pay someone else. It would have been $500 in parts to diy. You shouldn't use that figure to devalue the car you received without stating the "canada tax". Looking at pictures of the White car it looks very nice. Looking at the two tone car it looks rusty and there are random wires draped across the engine bay. It does not look like a nice car in the pictures. From what I can gather you didn't buy that car, so it's easy to speculate it's nicer. The reality is, it would also have had hidden issues and you would have been let down after purchasing it.

The Inspection report in the first post, come on. If those issues would cause an inspection issue, all but a museum original (valued well over $18K) would fail inspection. 90% of the cars here have these issues, they are typical turbo Buick problems.

I told myself I would no longer post up on this forum...ever...but Brian in no way deserves this slander 3 years after the fact.
Mike hit every point I was going to make in the above post. If you can find one person on this earth that would have refunded your $$$ after you take the car to the other side of the world and have it in your possession for a few weeks, and then tell me it has engine issues...your nuts. These cars are beat on...plain and simple. The shop that did your work easily could have "test drove" the car to full boost and did some, if not all the damage you had quoted. You just dropped off a 600 horse Buick and they coulda been licking their chops to drive it. You have no idea when the internal damage occured. You talked to the owner and got a clean bill of health from him. Brian doesnt beat on the cars. He barely beats on his own except at the track. You bought a 10sec car that may have needed a few tweaks to get it to your standards. I'm gonna say that as soon as you knew you were over your head in the mechanical part of these cars...you should have pulled the plug on the deal. Your feeling you needed to go thru with the deal is the real issue your kicking yourself for.

First off...why would you ever pay full price without seeing or driving any car??? Not just because it was Brian or Chip Foose, or anyone else. An agreement of a down payment to hold it would have been the best I woulda ever considered. You were already coming to the area for your daughter so it was not a direct trip for the car only.
I agree the Designer car from Michigan has issues too. The white car looks awesome from the pics.
Worst case...you get to Brian's and find some issues...and you make a decision on a new price or no deal. You dont buy it...haul it...bitch about it...offer to send it back...then fix it...wait 3 years...and jump on the world wide web and bash a guy for all your bad choices.

I have 5 collector/ showcars and they never leave my garage for work or other services. I am capable of performing any service or work needed on them. When I asked Brian 4 years ago to help me build a 9 sec Buick...he agreed to help. I bothered this guy for 3 years on the correct parts I needed to get, I picked his brain on why each piece was preferred over others, and countless other things. It took 13 months for my engine to get built and then...I actually did the unthinkable. I took one of my own cars...2 hours away...and delivered it to Brian's shop!!! While pulling out of the driveway...my friends were still saying..." I cant believe your letting someone else work on your new engine and car!!!" I had just left $50,000 sitting in Brian's garage. A 25k mile Grand National with 1000's of dollars in chassis work and goodies, a $15000 stroker engine and $10000 in turbo, FAST XFI, intercooler...etc. I never batted an eye. I'm not a Turbo Buick expert...Brian is.
I would do it again if needed and not loose a minutes sleep over it. As a matter of fact...Brian and Cal Hartline may come and get the car before Norwalk weekend, if needed,and finish the tune and dial it in for the dyno. If those guys show up at your garage and say they want to take your car and work on it...you smile and hand them the keys.

As for your comment about the Sage car...please be more specific. If your hinting in anyway that that is not the premier example of a Turbo Buick on 4 wheels in the country...you have other issues and really were never gonna be satisfied buying any car. That Sage car is beyond imagination in clean. It's nicer then when Buick owned it.

Well, this is enough...Brian's not ripping off anyone. Differences of opinion, of price, of what needs work....are part of every used car deal on planet earth.

Fix the flaws to your liking and you have your car just the way you want it. When the engine was found to be damaged...you wanted the car stock...you shoulda told them to remove the unwanted items and replace them with the stock items...and sold the aftermarket pieces. Then you get exactly what you wanted in the first place. You coulda put stock heads, cam & lifters, pushrods and been very happy. Sold the other items to pay for the work and the world is a happy place again.

I'm out. I did this only for Brain.
Take car guys.

Oh and unless Mercyhurst participates in Div I girls hockey...there are no Div I schools in Erie. I train athletes from most of the Erie colleges thru the summer months.

 

[tquick87]

Brian DOES NOT deserve this especially 3 years after the fact. He's helped me out when i had tuning questions and has always done right by me as well as countless members on here. If i'm friends with someone on here and decided to buy a car they recommended i'd still look the car over every inch, drive it, and scrutinize it more than if buying from a stranger. Maybe thats just me.

 

[turbojay]

"Buyer beware", "Due diligence"...Important words to know when buying an old car. There's no way I would send a check for $18k even to my best friend without checking out the car in person. It would've been worth $500 plane ride to come check out the car first. Complaining about the buy 3 years later doesn't make any sense...learn from the mistake and move on. I experienced something similar where I flew to Florida and checked out my GN, bought it, and drove it back home. Only to find out the cam had a wiped lobe. At first I did blame the seller for not telling me but he did let me check out the car on my own for 2-3 hours. Also he may not have known. In any case, I rebuilt the engine and moved on.


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[TRICKSIXPA]

The big question is 18k for a car that you were not completely in love with??? Next question I saw the pictures of the nice limited from Michigan but where are "your" pictures for Brian's White T? Pictures of maybe these bent pushrods? I do agree that your repair receipts show that the shop took you to the cleaners!! Combined maybe $1000 total for what you had done. Unless they did a roller cam.


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[BobbyBuick]

Hey it is buyer beware as far as i am concerned.I have purchased 2 cars off the internet and flew out to pick up one of the 25 yr old cars. .Sounds like the buyer is mad at himself and trying to justify a bad decision(in his mind).when you buy a car any used car 25 years old you are going to have some issues.Hell when I got my GN in 87 i had it back to the dealer a dozen times
I have been around since before the first board (just the Digest 1996) and I will tell you straight up will not find a person into Turbo Buicks (or anything for that matter) with better Character the Brian period .That said buyer had every opportunity to examine,take to a mechanic,refuse and turn around when he picked it up.Every used car sale is as is unless warranted by a dealer or is known to be mislead by the seller (example mileage fraud)

 

[KevinBroadwater]

I've meet Brian 3 years ago at Norwalk..Nothing but a great and honest guy. I got a new car last spring that had some issues. Brian said you need this, this and this. Well after getting those few parts, the car was perfect...stock rods and crank car - he got the car to go 10.13@134 at BG last fall. Brian helped me all 3 days at BG On Saturday Night, we were getting ready to leave, I gave Brian some money for the help all week. He said I'm not taking that. I said if you don't I'll get someone else to do the future work. He did take it but said "you'll be getting this back"! How many guys would do that? He is a stand up guy for sure!!

Waiting 3 years, yes that's an issue in my book! If I go to Walmart and buy a case of soda, bring it home and it only has 19 cans in it instead of 24 cans in it, I'm sure if I call right away they fix it, 3 years don't think so!

The sage car is nothing but sweet same as the gold car that runs 9.50s...

Again, I would trust Brian's word anyday!

 

[ALBERTAN]

This is fast turning into a "he said, she said" pi$$ing contest....Suggest you take to PM.

Well, I can see the mods are getting itchy trigger fingers. I had a big response to Brian trying to make me sound like a quack. But I'd rather have this post stay up where people can read everything and make up their own minds. It's funny how it's gotten sidetracked into how much I pay people to work on my cars, the condition of my red car (its easy to pick apart a car with 300+ pictures rather than one with 15 or so from its best angles), and all the other crap. Yet no one seems too concerned about those pushrods. I understand how most people here can't just walk away from $18,000, but I can. And I did when the car turned out to be a huge disappointment. All of the things that I should have picked up on at Brian's house I accept as my fault. I never said I wasn't responsible for part of this mess.

But here's the thing in a nutshell. I've documented I believe more than adequately that the car has less than 30 miles on it since I bought it. And I've documented that it has been repaired for bent pushrods and multiple failed lifters. If you want to believe I somehow trailered this unregistered car to the track and beat on it in the past two years just so I can smear Brian...well...who am I to stop you. But if maybe, just maybe, you want to entertain the possibility that the valvetrain was busted when Brian sold me the car, then you need to make a decision. Either:

1. He didn't figure out the car had mechanical issues in the (at least) weeks he had the car before I came to get it. That would bring into question his mechanical aptitude.
2. He knew the car was hurt and sent me down the road knowing what he had sold, and figured since I was so far away there would be no repercussions. That makes him a crook in my book.

My money is on #2. Believe what you want in the end, and continue taking your car to him if you're happy with how that's gone so far for you. But if I've given someone the motivation to treat Brian with a little closer scrutiny than I did, then I accomplished what I set out to do.

I'm done posting in this thread. Life is too short to get slandered over an $18,000 Buick trying to help fellow board members out. But first, I really have to say something about the comments he made about my daughter.

He stood out in my drive way taking pictures of his college daughter POSING with the car for 20 minutes before HE loaded it into his trailer!! This is for a car he didn't like??!! WHO DOES THAT?

I took maybe ONE minute to take one or two quick pictures of my daughter peeking her head out the window as I shot the car from behind, just before I loaded it on the trailer. It's a tradition I started a decade earlier when she came with me to pick up my TTA in Montana. I have the same photo for all my cars except my tan Limited. To make it sound like I did a photo shoot with my college daughter draped over the car in his driveway is classless, but typical of my dealings with Brian.

 

[EVIL]

The OP fucked up. No doubt.

That doesn't change the fact though the the seller knew, for a long time, what kind of car he was looking for and sold him a car that wasn't road worthy or up to the OP's standards to make a quick over priced buck.

He found his victim.

it's a snake move.

So it seems.

D

 

[Sydwyndr]

For all the years I have dealt with Brian I personally never heard 1 cross word about him from anyone, Always top notch and his Gold and Green car speak for themselves. Brian has been to NC to my TB.com events in the past and helped dozens of people when they had questions or concerns. I worked side by side with him in OH on Buschur's Dyno last year as we were swappin plugs, wires, coil packs, etc.... and he did virtually everything for everyone. Lorenz has a long, good standing reputation in the Buick community for decades and this is the FIRST I have ever seen something negatively posted against him.

The only question is why did it take so long to post about this?? If I had the concerns that you have I would have had them on the board years ago.

I am in no way taking anyone' s side in this however this is all about free speech. You are posting your dealings with Brian and so shall I.

This is the feedback forum so I just gave everyone "My Experience with Brian Lorenz "Limited87"

 

[BobbyBuick]

If he knew or if the valve train was even bad at the time Brian sold it .He could have had a new cam, lifters, timing chain, and push rods in it on a Saturday morning before most of you were out of bed and new oil in it .that and a pot of coffee without breaking a sweat probably 3 0r 4 hr job for him or less.also has the parts on the shelf ridiculous.
I had a friend drop a car to a local mechanic and picked it up with bent valves and pushrods they test drove it and over reved it then deny deny deny

 

[Limited87]

I'm done posting in this thread. Life is too short to get slandered over an $18,000 Buick trying to help fellow board members out. But first, I really have to say something about the comments he made about my daughter.



I took maybe ONE minute to take one or two quick pictures of my daughter peeking her head out the window as I shot the car from behind, just before I loaded it on the trailer. It's a tradition I started a decade earlier when she came with me to pick up my TTA in Montana. I have the same photo for all my cars except my tan Limited. To make it sound like I did a photo shoot with my college daughter draped over the car in his driveway is classless, but typical of my dealings with Brian.

Here he is TWISTING the story to HIS liking. Did I say she was taking picts draped over the car?? NO he just did... He showed me picts of her posing with the d84 car he bought on the way to pick this one up. Not just the one he posted with her in it. There were many others. She was modeling like Vanna White would be standing next to the car and he had her do the same at my house with the white car.

He told me at the time when he picked the car up in his exact words how "he was buying several of these cars because of how cheap they were.. he could spend over a 100k on any car but would rather have several Regal's instead" He set out to try and ruin my reputation in the Buick community over this car that he DID NOT have to take. Period. This thread has not gone the way he wanted it to go.

The OP fucked up. No doubt.

That doesn't change the fact though the the seller knew, for a long time, what kind of car he was looking for and sold him a car that wasn't road worthy or up to the OP's standards to make a quick over priced buck.

He found his victim.

it's a snake move.

So it seems.

D

Have you read anything?? He DID NOT have to accept this car!! He knew the mods, miles, etc that his car had. It wasn't a bone stock trailer queen with 10k miles. I sent him all the picts he wanted. If the car wasn't up to HIS obsessive compulsive standards why did he look at it for hours on 3 different days and drive it into his trailer and take it almost 3k miles away to complain about it?! He never said anything at the time he wasn't satisfied with it. I found my victim?? He bugged me for YEARS about finding him Limited's.. He bought 3 in few weeks time. As for the price, he planned on taking this car back to bone stock and selling all the hi perf parts off. There was several thousands of dollars in parts that would have came off that car when HE returned it back to stock.

 

[reggie44]

OK, normally I would never post on a thread like this or get involved for a number of reasons BUT... I started reading this longggggggg story late last night and then just picked it up again today and had to comment on a number of things that you state Dean. Firstly, I don't know Brian personally but talked to him a number of years ago and by e-mail back and forth on correct NOS parts and date coding and also met him at a show once in Ohio and Brian to me is a straight up, stand up guy and has been in the Buick game a long time... just like Dennis Kirban but I will pick that up shortly.

Dean, you don't remember me but you contacted me a bunch of times wanting to get photographs AND my VIN # and other information from my pristine, low mileage, all original 1987 Buick Turbo Regal Limited that was once owned by New York Yankees Hall of Fame (1993) Reggie Jackson #44. I was interested in what you were trying to do with the Limited Registry but you didn't really answer any of my questions straight and the website was down although I did see it once up but you didn't really have much information on it - did I give you my VIN # or any other information - NO and why ? - because my gut feeling was telling me and I think I was right that you were more interested in collecting photographs and information on low mileage, pristine Turbo Limited's - in order to find the perfect one then for research purposes for your Limited Registry. Is there anything wrong with that - yes the way I see it if the information was more for personal use to buy the 'perfect' car then for research and preservation purposes.

I live in central Canada and travel back and forth to the US all the time and have had a US mailing Address for over 30 years - WHY and you will know this Dean - because it's a pain in the a-- for most people, companies and sellers off of E-bay to ship to Canada. It's the reality and has been for a long time and always will be and that's why US Customs and Homeland Security exists. I will state for the record that I have known Dennis Kirban and his family and staff for a long time and consider Dennis one of my best friends and in fact will see him in two weeks at his Spring Open House as I do every year. I am writing this response because I feel you took a 'cheap shot' at Dennis and Brian... your valuations are all wrong... you fail to mention in your story that when you purchased the car from Brian for $18K US the CDN dollar was almost at par, at most it was trading at $1.03 which means you would have paid $18,000.00 US x $1.03 = $18,540.00 CDN. The reality is weather you wan't to acknowledge it or not you are buying a car from the USA and the seller is going to expect US currency - end of story. They are not going to give a hoot or should they what the CDN valuation is trading at - for example as you know the CDN dollar is in the toilet right now trading at around $1.28 and it is going to drop lower as the months go on due to the price and value of oil and many other factors.

Nothing burns me more when I hear so many Canadians up here moan and groan about shipping rates from the US to Canada and duties and customs applied by Canada Customs (not US Customs) and brokerage fees applied by UPS. Then you have the group of Canadians that ask US vendors (like Kirban Performance) to LIE on the invoice and state a untrue dollar valuation so the invoice and brokerage charges are cheaper... there are severe penalties applied by both sides if ever caught doing this. Dean, dragging Kirban Performance into this is not cool - Dennis has been around in the Turbo Buick community since day one and has been involved in GTO's, Hurst and Turbo Buicks for over 40 years and heck has written many books on Turbo Buicks' - including even on how to buy one and to do your due diligence - perhaps something you clearly did not do when you purchased the white Limited from Brian. As several other people here have said regardless of how many times you had talked to Brian, you should have sent a deposit, book a plane ticket to Ohio and rented a car and inspected the car during the day and not night and then you could have made you mind up if you wanted to pull the trigger on the car or not but wow to bring this up three years later - really - time to move on - either fix the car and love it or sell it and take your lickings like a big boy.

Back to Kirban Performance - I can personally tell you that Dennis' incredible staff and company are one of the few Buick Vendors left that will actually ship to Canada and they constantly have uneducated Canadians complain on how Customs work and moan and complain to Dennis when they receive the items that they ordered and are hit with a bill for duties and excise from UPS or another freight carrier. Bottom line as the old saying goes - you want to play you have to pay - no one drives for free. You mention in your example of the billet adjustable fuel regulator that UPS (not true - it's applied by Canada Customs) will apply a 6.1% duty - ONLY if the part is of non USA made origin - in other words Made in China or offshore, otherwise duty is not applicable but I suspect you know this. My two cents but if you are complaining about the cost of parts from the US to Canada - then it's simple - get a US mailing address and drive and pick up the items and clear them through Customs yourself- just what I have been doing for a long time. Kirban Performance does NOT have United States Postal Service pick-up but they will constantly go out of there way to ship items for Canadian Customers and drive quite far to the nearest local USPS Office to ship items - on their own time - they don't make a extra dime for doing this.

It's sad to see this being dragged through the mud like this and three years later - WOW... sell the car or keep but time to move on.[/QUOTE]

 

[JayC]

If you dont have a dog in this fight, stay out of it.

Thats the last warning this thread will get. If the OP and the seller want to bicker back and forth until the end of time, have at it. Everyone else, stay out of it. I can arrange vacations if you dont.

 

[Turbo6Camaro]

ADMIN NOTE

Im giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[Turbo6Camaro]

ADMIN NOTE

Im giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

Um what does this mean. All I was trying to say is I personally looked at the car and it was exactly what it was supposed to be. End of story. I also personally know the person the car was purchased off of.

 

[JayC]

Um what does this mean. All I was trying to say is I personally looked at the car and it was exactly what it was supposed to be. End of story. I also personally know the person the car was purchased off of.

Maybe you should read the post right above your first one then. Im pretty sure I was typing in English.

If you dont have a dog in this fight, stay out of it.

Thats the last warning this thread will get. If the OP and the seller want to bicker back and forth until the end of time, have at it. Everyone else, stay out of it. I can arrange vacations if you dont.

That help?