N/A 4.1 builds?

[jdpolzin]

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-69-246-4

 

[jdpolzin]

How does this compare to Charlies? I'd be using stock 1.55 rockers. Also, in combination with a stock D5, I'm curious what cam will match? My thinking is a stock D5 would be pretty decent for driveability and keeping the engine in mid range rpm with the 3:73.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Thats the comp cam ive run for years, meh its okay. There are better grinds out there they just havent been made yet. its flat on the low end with ported heads, dual plane, holley 390 and headers.

 

[bison]

Thats the comp cam ive run for years, meh its okay. There are better grinds out there they just havent been made yet. its flat on the low end with ported heads, dual plane, holley 390 and headers.

They've been made. He's going to be gear and converter limited. If use a cam with even less overlap than that or it will be really crappy below 3500rpm


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[jdpolzin]

Maybe the comp 212/212? Brian, what do you think about finding a cheap old school orange or red stripe or any restalled d5 instead? I know I see the old stripe converters all over for $100 or less.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

good point on the rpm, 218/224 on 114, Engle has a flat tappet in that profile ive used for small huffers before.

 

[bison]

Maybe the comp 212/212? Brian, what do you think about finding a cheap old school orange or red stripe or any restalled d5 instead? I know I see the old stripe converters all over for $100 or less.

I would use a cam that is similar to what is used in a 3800. Especially with the tight converter and tall gearing. It will have better drivability and you won't need to worry about gearing and converter selection.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[jdpolzin]

So pretty small? What do you suggest? I'm definitely not going to be RPMing this motor. Mid Range is what I'm looking for. One thing I should probably mention. I'm open to suggestions on rear gears. The rear tires are only 25.5" tall so that'll help a little. My biggest worry about something like a 4.10 gear is that the trans wont shift correctly. Do you guys think that'll be an issue with a CZF trans? Driveability and gas mileage are important to me but if a shorter gear wont effect much, I'm game to give it a try.

 

[ek02]

I have built a few 3.8's for my Toyota pickup, and three 4.1's with a stroker crank, forged rods, and custom JE pistons. My current engine is a girdled 484 block with GN1 heads, 1.65 roller rockers, a ported KB intake with an Edelbrock 650 cfm AVS carb, a Comp custom roller with 885 lifters, custom built 3 into 1 headers, and a 150 shot of N2O. I estimate 300-325 HP and about 90-100 more for the nitrous since a V6 does not actually make 150 HP on those jets. The engine you are planning will probably make about 200-225 HP. Jim Ruggles built a 4.1 stock stroke engine that made 230HP, and put the build in his Buick V6 Performance book. The cam Charlie has might be a good one for that heavy car. A looser converter is a must. 2500 works well on the street. If you are sticking with a stock crank, a set of Earl's pistons would be the way to go. If using stock rods, you will be pressing the pins in. The 4.1 intake with a Q Jet will work OK if you want to keep it stock looking. I like a single plane manifold and a 600-650CFM carb. I like the FelPro head gaskets for being trouble free. I used Cometics once and had some coolant loss issues. If your block can just be honed straight, you can use slightly oversize custom pistons with .005 file fit rings. If it needs to be bored, go .035 so you can use 4" bore rings. There are no rings in between. Pocket porting the heads really helps. Don't expect it to be very fast in a heavy car, but it will be way better than a 225.

 

[usetaboost]

^this was the guy I was gonna suggest you go to. Jeremy, have you considered maybe a 300-350 buick v8? Most are given away for damn near nothing and will be a drop in. No mount changes. I wanted to go this route but kept coming up with junk around here. They seem to be more attainable in eastern iowa though. There was a guy GIVING away a complete 300 on buick v8 board a while back. It's stuff that no one wants. Just a thought. Even a shit compression 350 would be nice in that car with a 4 barrel and recurved distributor. Got any pics of this car? It's a 66 right?

 

[usetaboost]

Oh 65, those are good too.

 

[jdpolzin]

A small update so far. I bought a good standard bore 291 4.1 block as well as a weiand 7541 intake with spacer. I also have an Edlebrock 600 carb. Still conflicted on pistons. See some postings on using 3.0 rods and chevy pistons. Any ideas on these? I have an NA non rolled fillet crank to use with this set up as well. I figure theres probably no need to use a turbo crank on this build.

 

[czimpel]

Jeremy, did you ever get a cam? I have that Schneider cam that Charlie had. I bought some new lifters for it as well. You can have that for shipping if you'd like it.

I also have some other 2 dot rods and stock 4.1 pistons if you are interested in those. They will be low compression though. I also think I have a turbo crank that will need to be turned, but I would have to do some digging for that.

Cory

 

[jdpolzin]

Hey brother, I'll take that can and give it a shot. How did you end up with that? I got to thinking, I think Charlie may have got it from me years back along with a non CCI distributer. Not sure though. I have a set of rods and plan to just use the NA crank. Will likely need a set of high compression Pistons.

 

[czimpel]

He gave it to me for a 4.1 build I was doing, but I ended up going with a used roller setup. I'll get a shipping quote for you. Do you want the lifters too?

 

[jdpolzin]

Sounds good. Sure, I'll take what ever I can get!


I contacted Earl about a set of pistons, I'm hoping he can come up with something in the 10 or 10.5:1 range.

 

[jdpolzin]

Has anyone read of or heard of testing between the different style intakes? Edlebrock, Weiand, stock, etc? I tried to find info but came up with very minimal. Also, I was chatting with Charlie years ago and remember a conversation about stock 4.1 manifolds. I'm debating on whether to run a set of headers or stock manifolds. I'd prefer manifolds to keep it stock appearing but if they choke it off, I'll have no problem with headers. I used to have a set of v6 headers way back years ago but never thought I'd use them so they ended up on a Jeep! Doh!

 

[ek02]

Kenne Bell tested Edelbrock intakes against theirs years ago, and the KB was better for mid range and top end power. I would use the Weiand you already have. It's similar to the KB. I used an Edelbrock (correction, Offenhauser) dual port and then an open plenum single plain Holly intake on my old odd fire V6, and the open plenum worked better. I have KB intakes on my engines now and they work great with nitrous and every day driving.

 

[jdpolzin]

Found some interesting info on Kenne Bell testing a 4.1:






Smokey Yunick's 5-step dyno test
4.1L Buick V6 with stock 4 barrel intake and Qjet carb 152 HP
Weiand intake manifold and Holley 600 CFM carb 170 HP
Weiand headers 175 HP
Crane H-214/2867-12 cam 202 HP
Bowl port heads 230 HP

Kenne Bell Level 1 Package
HP HP
Total Increase
125 -- Factory HP 231 V6
150 25 KB Number intake manifold
160 10 Holley 390 CFM carb
182 22 KB Mark 1 (dual pattern) cam kit
194 12 9.25:1 compression pistons
197 03 KB windage tray
200 03 KB oil pan
210 10 Mark 2 cam

Kenne Bell Level 2 package
240 30 KB ported heads
245 05 KB needle bearing roller rockers
250 05 headers

Kenne Bell drag testing (note: the info below has some tests from 1977 Skyhawk mixed
in with 1979 Skyhawk tests).
Test MPH ET HP
1 74.1 16.60 95 1979 Skyhawk w/KB oil pump kit and grooved main bearings,
7" slicks, stock gears, 2850lbs, 3050 lbs w/driver
2 75.0 16.50 100 KB flex fan and fan spacer kit
3 76.0 16.40 104 KB advance curve kit
4 76.5 16.10 104 4.10 gears with KB ring spacer
5 77.6 16.00 109 replace catalytic converter and muffler with KB parts
6 77.9 15.98 111 conventional 1 1/2" 3 tube headers
7 78.6 15.90 114 conventional 1 5/8" 3 tube headers
8 80.1 15.73 123 KB81031 1 5/8" 3-in-1 headers
9 83.3 15.34 137 KB Mark 1L cam kit (recommend KB roller timing chain,
cam gasket kit and front cover seal)
10 84.3 15.23 142 KB Mark 1X cam kit (cut guides and install KB seals with
0.060" retainer clearance)
11 86.0 15.12 152 KB Mark 2X cam kit
12 no change Rhoads lifters

Note: Cam and headers were tested with stock 2 barrel carb and intake. Had the
4 barrel carb and intake been tested first, increases would likely have been
larger.

13 87.1 15.01 157 KB19904 oil pan, KB19801 windage tray
14 88.0 14.91 163 KB crank, water pump and alternator pulleys
15 90.2 14.70 174 KB Number 1 intake manifold with stock 2 barrel carb
16 92.5 14.56 187 KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 500 CFM Carter
17 93.0 14.50 190 KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 625 CFM Carter
18 92.0 14.60 184 KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 400 CFM Carter
19 91.0 14.70 178 Heat KB intake runners to same temperature as conventional
manifold.
20 92.0 14.60 184 Cool runners
21 92.0 14.70 184 KB Number 1 intake manifold and KB jetted Holley 390 carb
(recommend KB EGR block off plate, heat isolator gasket)
22 93.3 14.55 195 KB blocked off heat riser (gasket or plates)
23 92.0 14.70 184 install stock air cleaner
24 93.3 14.55 195 KB46007F polyester max-flo low profile air cleaner

XX 94.1 14.41 196 Ram air (4" hose through headlight or hood scoop/cowl)
Note this test had 400 CFM Carter and did not have
blocked off heat risers
25 94.8 14.39 207 KB61003S budget forged pistons 10.2:1 compression ratio
26 94.8 14.39 207 KB50004 7000 RPM cast pistons 10.2:1 compression ratio
27 94.8 14.39 207 KB60003 Superlite forged pistons compression ratio
28 89.8 15.14 168 change to Edelbrock #5486 dual plane intake
(same 6000 RPM shift points)
29 89.8 15.06 168 lower shift points to 5000 RPM
30 94.8 14.39 207 re-install KB Number 1 intake manifold
31 95.9 14.29 214 KB11804-KB11904 Stage 1 valves only
32 97.4 14.12 221 ported and polished high port heads w/KB Stage 1 valves
33 98.5 14.01 228 KB Mark 2R cam
34 no change Rhoads lifters
35 100.0 13.87 240 KB Mark 3R cam kit
36 no change KB Mark 3RS cam kit (same design as 3R but solid lifter)

Note: 10.2:1 CR will run fine on 92 octane, use Rhoads lifters on Mark 2R or 3R
cams to smooth out for street use

37 101.9 13.72 250 KB 12:1 compression ratio pistons
38 102.8 13.64 255 KB9301 roller rocker arms
39 102.8 13.04 255 10" x 29.5" slicks, 5.13:1 gears and Doug Nash 4 speed
40 103.7 12.93 263 KB aluminum pulleys

Note: The above 12:1 compression engine can be run on the street but requires
100 octane fuel.

The following tests are for a competition only vehicle. Engine was rebuilt
with heavy duty block and rods, studs, MSD ignition, scattershield, steel
flywheel, etc. Suspension was also optimized for drag race (Ron Cosner front
and 4 link rear).

41 104.0 12.89 266 blueprinted engine
42 no change increase bearing and piston clearance 0.001"
43 106.1 12.59 278 KB Mark 5RS cam
44 109.4 12.31 304 KB82-7342 roller cam kit with Crane roller lifters
45 110.5 12.20 311 Mr. Gasket electric water pump kit
46 111.3 11.99 323 13:1 pistons
47 no change KB/Howards aluminum rods
48 no change install identical odd-fire engine
49 115.0 11.72 358 install identical 252" engine
50 124.0 10.80 442 Ported Stage 2 heads, KB roller rockers, head studs,
cam kit, 3-in-1 headers, Edelbrock Stage 2 intake
manifold
51 125.0 10.71 451 Change to 750 Carter or Holley
52 no change Milodon gear drive
53 122.1 11.00 Powerglide tranmissions and 7" high stall converter
54 126.4 10.60 493 276" stroker V6 with powerglide
55 129.0 10.30 493 Doug Nash 5 speed transmission

Note: KB ultimately turned 9.18 @ 146.5 MPH in 2400 lb car, breaking
the NHRA record

 

[jdpolzin]

So how does a windage tray (oil pan baffle) add 5hp? I'm calling BS on that one!