Need Guidance with Roller Cam and Lifters Install - First Timer

[earlbrown]

I just reread dynoman's post. I guess I misinterpreted it. I saw the "some use..." and then he spoke of the two different brands of sealant. Now I see in the last part of the last sentence...the pesky little word need. Sigh...

So what you're telling me, is I have to do it all over again.

If you put your threads in dry, yes you have to pull the studs out. Those holes do go to water and that water will be pressurized shortly after firing up the engine.

Honesty a GM seal tab will fix the leaks but you don't want water between the stud shafts and the head FOREVER if you don't have to have it there.

.....oh yeah don't but antifreeze in the radiator on the initial fire, just use water from the garden hose or the back of the toilet tank.

If its on the stand and the headers aren't installed yet, I'd back the nuts off one at a time. Just enough until they are lose then use the hex wrench to remove the whole assy. Pull the studs one at a time and jizz them up with sealant. Then run them back down.

This is going to be a time consuming tedious thing with no reward of a mechanics high, so go ahead and get plenty of beers and fire up pornhub for some background noise.

When you're done at least your nuts-to-studs threads will have one more cycle on them to half fully marry the threads.


When you wake up tomorrow, back them off 1/4 turn one at a time and retorque them starting from the inside out. If you dig being all ANALytical, mark the starting point then note where the fasteners land when you're done with the second pass. You might dig the results. Granted it's not as fun as mentoring know-it-all millinials, but real science is actually pretty rewarding. ESP when you can see it in real life

 

[Terbro]

One more suggestion, While it's apart check out your Headers for any cracks,look especially close at the drivers side one.
Now is the time to discover any cracks and have them fixed.

I just did a quick check today, and saw additional weld metal. I know that's a problem with our headers. But good tip. I'll inspect them more thoroughly again to be sure, but I saw more material in the one key area, so I suspect they're good.

On that note, I noticed that they were leaking pretty bad, as you can see from the photo I took this afternoon. I tightened one bolt when I first got the car back, and my mechanic mentioned that a few others were loose when he removed them. He also said they didn't have gaskets. Is it common to install them without gaskets? I bought new gaskets and was planning on installing them.

 

[Terbro]

If you put your threads in dry, yes you have to pull the studs out. Those holes do go to water and that water will be pressurized shortly after firing up the engine.

Honesty a GM seal tab will fix the leaks but you don't want water between the stud shafts and the head FOREVER if you don't have to have it there.

.....oh yeah don't but antifreeze in the radiator on the initial fire, just use water from the garden hose or the back of the toilet tank.

If its on the stand and the headers aren't installed yet, I'd back the nuts off one at a time. Just enough until they are lose then use the hex wrench to remove the whole assy. Pull the studs one at a time and jizz them up with sealant. Then run them back down.

This is going to be a time consuming tedious thing with no reward of a mechanics high, so go ahead and get plenty of beers and fire up pornhub for some background noise.

When you're done at least your nuts-to-studs threads will have one more cycle on them to half fully marry the threads.


When you wake up tomorrow, back them off 1/4 turn one at a time and retorque them starting from the inside out. If you dig being all ANALytical, mark the starting point then note where the fasteners land when you're done with the second pass. You might dig the results. Granted it's not as fun as mentoring know-it-all millinials, but real science is actually pretty rewarding. ESP when you can see it in real life

I didn't put them in "dry" per se...I used the ARP lubricant supplied with the stud kit...but no sealant.

I want to do it right, so I'll be pulling the studs and doing it again. The motor is in the car (not on a stand), so I'm a little confused about your suggestion. I was just planning on pulling the studs out, hitting them with sealant and repeating what I did today.

Oh, are you suggesting that I remove one stud at a time, apply sealant, run it back down and retorque and then move on to the next stud? In other words, I don't have to go through the whole sequential multi-phasic torqueing procedure like I did initially? I like that much better! Yeah, yeah...I hope that's what you're saying - r&r one at a time, applying sealant.

 

[earlbrown]

Actually my recommendation just changed....


The threads on your block are coated with oil based ARP lube. Sealant can't do it's job with a coating of that stuff.

Time to pull the heads, degrease those holes (hit them with a wire brush chucked up in a drill motor) and start over.

I hope you're noting running expensive head gaskets.

 

[Terbro]

Actually my recommendation just changed....


The threads on your block are coated with oil based ARP lube. Sealant can't do it's job with a coating of that stuff.

Time to pull the heads, degrease those holes (hit them with a wire brush chucked up in a drill motor) and start over.

I hope you're noting running expensive head gaskets.

Sure am. $140+ Cometic. How 'bout Plan A that doesn't involve pulling the heads...with the one stud a time deal...using brake cleaner. I'm even going to see if break cleaner breaks the lube down quickly without the brush.

So...I didn't sleep well, just woke up with a migraine. I'm going back to bed. Might not work on the car today. Might test see how well brake cleaner dissolves the ARP lube late afternoon...betting it'll do just fine.

I know...spraying brake cleaner down into the motor won't be good for diluting oil. But it evaporates beautifully. I'd rather spray it down the holes, then when the time comes, fill with oil, and change the oil without running the motor...to purge out any residual brake cleaner, than A) buy new Cometic head gaskets (apparently, you're saying they're not reusable once torqued down), and B) save the time by doing one stud at a time.
The bottom line is, the way I see it, the heads only create additional distance to the threads. If I can find a brush long enough, say for a rifle barrel, then I can leave the heads on, right?

Alright...back to bed.

 

[Mike T]

If you didn't clean the threads in the block you now have a mix of ARP lube and whatever was used during the first assembly (maybe even some other debris). Like others have said the threads need to be clean and new sealer applied. It's also very easy to get trash down in the cylinders while cleaning out the threads so be very careful.


At this point don't mix up the studs, nuts and washers.........I don't even like to flip the washer over that been torqued with a specific nut. May be overkill but I think everything should go back exactly as it was torqued the first time.

 

[No disintegrations]

The brake clean will be ending up in the cooling system where it may or may not evaporate. Wd-40 is very good at dissolving oil and grease. It will leave it's own oil residue but is virtually harmless. I think if you want, compressed air with an extended nozzle combined with wd should get the block threads clean enough for the Teflon sealer.
Besides half of the cometic installs seep water from studs or etc. Then we put tabs in anyway.

Or you could use the wd as first step so you don't spray a ton of brake cleaner in the motor.

 

[achalmersman]

After using brake clean I would spray with electrical contact cleaner to remove any residue left by the brake clean

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[larrym]

Yup the block needs to be cleaned, I always chase the threads to make sure there is no old sealant in there.
I used the right stuff sealant on my last go it's working well and I have used the loctite thread sealer as well with good results.

 

[earlbrown]

Cometics can be reused with a cleaning and copper spray. i've seen me do it.

On your set up, if you get some engine cleaning brushes and a drill motor, you can most likely clean the threads by reaching down in there and blasting/brushing the hell out of the threads.

It might takes 5 cans to do it as that ARP good is sticky sticky.

The cleaner will be going into your water jecket not the crankcase so there's really no worry there. You'll just see some ARP goop floating around in the water after the first fire up.

I think I mentioned it before, don't run antifreeze on first fireup, ESP when using MLS gaskets.

 

[t-typinator]

This is a bit off the immediate topic of redoing the studs, but since you mentioned that you didn,t tear down the motor yourself,you may or may not know about the grounds at the rear of the motor.
The one on the firewall just behind the intake is in plain sight so not easy to miss if it is still bolted to the firewall ,but if it's not then it could be easily overlooked, (that one was originally bolted to the top of the tranny i believe, but most just bolt it to the back of the intake now). There is also one that goes from the frame to the back of the passenger side head ,alot of times this one is beat up badly,from people forgetting it when they pull the motor or the head and forget to unhook it ,it gets broken ,and then kind of mickey moused back together,it also has usually spent 20+ yrs saturated in oil and is in sad shape ,so don't forget this important hidden ground that could cause you future problems if missed.If it's in not so good shape it should be replaced altogether.
Good grounds on these ancient electrical systems is vital.

 

[earlbrown]

I've never heard of one from the frame to the engine. As far as I know GM never bothered to ground the frame.

That being said, based on my personal experience, it's a good idea to ground the frame. The car really likes it.

 

[Terbro]

Cometics can be reused with a cleaning and copper spray. i've seen me do it.

On your set up, if you get some engine cleaning brushes and a drill motor, you can most likely clean the threads by reaching down in there and blasting/brushing the hell out of the threads.

It might takes 5 cans to do it as that ARP good is sticky sticky.

The cleaner will be going into your water jecket not the crankcase so there's really no worry there. You'll just see some ARP goop floating around in the water after the first fire up.

I think I mentioned it before, don't run antifreeze on first fireup, ESP when using MLS gaskets.

Okay...that's great news - that it'll going into the water jacket. All these suggestions are very much appreciated and informative.

I'm envisioning a way of using a pipe cleaner brush, with just the right type of soft cloth wrap (or a type of sock*) around it, soaked in brake cleaner...and "thread" it in, much like it was a bolt.

* Someone would do well to custom design and make a head bolt hold cleaning kit, with those two things...the right size pipe cleaner, and custom made socks for it. Or even a type hot dog shaped fine-pore size sponge cleaner. It might just be time to start Googling (not for that, but for general purpose equivalents). I still think I might find something at a gun shop...maybe with a T-handle...rifle barrel brush cleaner. Hmmm..... It's been a while since I've owned a firearm, but I think I remember nice soft cloths as well. Might cost me a few $, but it might be the ticket to getting them thar threads nice an' clean.

No, I haven't been running antifreeze anyway; only distilled H20 and RMI125.

 

[Terbro]

This is a bit off the immediate topic of redoing the studs, but since you mentioned that you didn,t tear down the motor yourself,you may or may not know about the grounds at the rear of the motor.
The one on the firewall just behind the intake is in plain sight so not easy to miss if it is still bolted to the firewall ,but if it's not then it could be easily overlooked, (that one was originally bolted to the top of the tranny i believe, but most just bolt it to the back of the intake now). There is also one that goes from the frame to the back of the passenger side head ,alot of times this one is beat up badly,from people forgetting it when they pull the motor or the head and forget to unhook it ,it gets broken ,and then kind of mickey moused back together,it also has usually spent 20+ yrs saturated in oil and is in sad shape ,so don't forget this important hidden ground that could cause you future problems if missed.If it's in not so good shape it should be replaced altogether.
Good grounds on these ancient electrical systems is vital.

I'm familiar with that ground (the firewall-intake)...was just thinking about it yesterday. But I love these tips/reminders, because I agree...now is the time to replace/upgrade. I will be, now that you mention it - thanks!

 

[ek02]

If you never fired the engine, Cometics can be reused. I have done it with no problem when I had to pull the heads and reinstall them months later. If the block and heads have not been machined with a very smooth finish, it's a gamble anyway that they wont leak. Use Permatex 59214 high temp thread sealer on the stud threads in the block and AC Delco 10-5054 cooling system seal tabs, or GM equivalent. Use ARP lube on the nuts and washers or ARP Teflon lube, which gives even more protection against leaking. I've done this a number of times and had leaks until I started using these products. I would use brake cleaner to get the old lube off and blow out the bolt holes with air. They need to be clean, oil free, and dry.

 

[t-typinator]

I've never heard of one from the frame to the engine. As far as I know GM never bothered to ground the frame.

That being said, based on my personal experience, it's a good idea to ground the frame. The car really likes it.

Now that you say that, the ones to the passenger head come from the wiring harness,
It's been years since i've had one of these apart.The last few tr's i've owned were actually running great and never really had them torn down.
If i remember correctly the last one i was under had the wire or wires coming from the wiring harness to the back of the rear of the passenger head and a strap going from that same spot on the back of the head down to the frame.
The one to the frame was probably added yrs later in an attempt to get a better ground.

 

[Terbro]

These guys are looking pretty sweet...in addition to some of the wire brushes I've also seen on the site:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo...egory/Cleaning-Kits-Accessories/104270580.uts

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo...egory/Cleaning-Kits-Accessories/104270580.uts

 

[t-typinator]

I'm familiar with that ground (the firewall-intake)...was just thinking about it yesterday. But I love these tips/reminders, because I agree...now is the time to replace/upgrade. I will be, now that you mention it - thanks!

There is not just that one,there is the ones from the harness to the back of the passenger side head, thats the one that is easy to miss, and the one that's alot of times in need of repair.

 

[Terbro]

There is not just that one,there is the ones from the harness to the back of the passenger side head, thats the one that is easy to miss, and the one that's alot of times in need of repair.

Roger that. I'll replace both.

 

[Terbro]

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo...egory/Cleaning-Kits-Accessories/104270580.uts

I really like this concept. I can soak it in brake cleaner, turn it down just like it was a bolt so it thoroughly cleans the threads, and back it out the same way. And being so absorbent, it should retain the majority of the solvent (will lose some being squeezed, if I over soak it). Rinse and repeat until the brush comes up clean.

I just want to be careful not to lose the tip down the hole...so I'll need to really crank the tip tight onto the handle. If I back it out, it might unscrew.