Need Guidance with Roller Cam and Lifters Install - First Timer

[Boost231]

Nope. Carry on..

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[Terbro]

Nope. Carry on..

Really? Please remember the title of my thread. This is absolutely a first for me, and I'm getting hit with unknowns right and left. If you were simply entertained by my naiveté and felt compelled to express that (as a Staff Member)...awesome. If you thought one of my questions stupid...same deal.

I'm just really hoping to get some quality input from those who remember when they were novice, yet enthusiastic and ambitious about tackling an area of motor work that they hadn't before. I don't think any of us were born with our knowledge of motors...we all had to learn. And my hat is off to anyone who never had a bonehead question, who after gaining experience realized it was actually all fairly basic *once they did it*.

I was in biotech research for 12 years. I would supervise younger entry level employees who came in with zero experience, yet had a bachelor's degree in biology. I too was sometimes surprised at how they could have a 4-year degree, yet still be so naïve at some of the most basic lab procedures. That's just the way it is...hands-on experience is huge. Once I (hopefully, successfully) do this, things will be much different.

In the meantime, I'm just hoping to continue to get guidance and tips, even if they're the most simple...from those who are willing.

But thanks for your input...helps - I'm totally void of any fear that I might make mistake(s) and have to do it all over again. That's sarcasm, btw.

 

[Boost231]

You're taking my post way to far. I made it because I was shocked how far you had it apart and the current progress you have made. Keep up with what your doing. Relax alittle...

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[Terbro]

Relax alittle...

That's good advice. Now you know my last comment about having concern is very real. But, easier said than done... There's part of me that's loving this, being "into" the motor, and I will surely be very pleased if/when it A) comes out okay and B) I get to realize the fruits of my labor with the upgraded heads, bigger, better (roller) cam and roller rockers.

I've actually been doing quite well at taking it easy, that is until the "wow" comment, haha. Had no idea how to interpret that. And the follow up was too vague to give me any comfort. There are some on this board, who let's just say, I'm not their favorite guy. I'm sure they'd be quite amused to see me fail.

What I'm most impressed with, is Nick. I may not be his favorite guy either, but I still see him offering quality advice to me, despite our history. I respect that greatly...that's an example of how we should strive to be. Need to remember that myself...

Anyway...enough yammering - I've got some studs to continue gingerly torqueing!

 

[ITSAV6]

He is probably wondering since all the "comments" some put in his other thread. If you don't know something no question is dumb. Carry on and keep learning. And I know what you mean about college grads, we have a bunch at work. Most have various engineering degrees.....clueless, book sense is all.

 

[Terbro]

Alllllrighty then. Heads are bolted, or should I say...studded down TIGHT!

 

[Boost231]

What process did you use?

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[earlbrown]

Much better with studs. On fine threads you get much better clamping pressure per degree of rotation since the inclined plane is less steep.

I like Yamabond on the stud-to-head threads. It's non-hardening, doesn't care about petro, gooey as hell and flat out works. I've had 0% of issues using that on studs (and pipe threads). That being said, i still drop a seal tab or two in every engine I build with studs and/or MLS gaskets.

On the torque, hand tight means 'hand tight', not 'hex wrench in your hand' tight' Yes, the studs can and will turn while torquing (hence the reason for non-hardening sealing jizz). If our goo gets dry and you crack it loose,.... well, it's cracked loose.

With the specs on the sequence, make your first hit about 40 or 50% of the final torque (as long as you're heads aren't torqued to 500 lb/#s) then go from there. If you use moly based lube on the washers, nuts and studs, roll the engine and blast as much of the extra off onto the floor. Moly molecules are large enough to get trapped in a filter and the last thing you want on a new start up is to clog a filter and fully open the bypass.
When tightening, start in the middle and work outwards. Just like smoothing the wrinkles out of a bed sheet.

....err,, just like smoothing the bubbles out of illegal window tint.


When doing stud on a 20bolt Buick V6 pay CLOSE attention to the outside long studs. It's been reported that some are a little short and 'torque up' without actually clamping the head. Run those nuts down by hand and make sure the washer has some drag. If not, get a couple more hardened washers to take up the slack.

Also if you shaved the hell out of your head, decked the hell out of your block, run very thing head gaskets (or a combination of the three) make sure the block's dowel pins don't hold the head up and keep you from clamping down on the gasket.

Most likely on your build that won't be an issue. If the head gets that low starting the intakes bolts will be an issue (or impossible) and throw a flag.


There's probably more stuff but i managed to get all my 'guests' out of my house early and I've been drinking

 

[t-typinator]

I know this is a bit late to ask this question, but were the heads new from champion ?
If not, were they surfaced/milled and or checked for flatness before the install ?

I ran into a major problem in the past with a set of heads that were not checked by the machine shop before install on a high compression motor.
On a boosted motor i would definetely want to make sure they are flat before installation.

 

[Terbro]

What process did you use?

I read a few threads and watched a few youtube vids on how to install studs, to get the general concept down. One vid was very helpful (for a SBC), showing how to install the studs. I didn't use the sealant, which I may regret...we'll see. I just used the Allen wrench and screwed the studs all the way in until they stopped, without tightening too hard. I lubed 'em up with the ARP lubricant supplied.

I had put the heads on before unboxing the studs (because I ordered bolts), so I just left the heads on when putting the studs in. Didn't see any problem in doing that, as screwing the studs in was so straight forward. After the studs were on, I put the washers all on. I then put a dab of the ARP lube inside each nut, and screwed them all on hand-tight. I then took a regular ratchet with the 13 mm socket and gingerly went around each nut just to get them all a little more snug, starting with the inside nuts first, in an X pattern. I repeated that several times, as each time, as the heads evenly started, shall we say hunker down on to the decks, they were still easy to ratchet.

And then I got serious. I used the torque sequence/pattern from this thread: http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/90683-head-bolt-torque-sequence.html , switching to the torque wrench. I set it for 30 lbs, but being that it's longer, I did another 2-3 rounds of casual tightening, if you will...before going for the click on the torque wrench. I then decided I would go 50, 65, then the final 80 lb torqueage (following the proper sequence each time of course).

Being that I bought the relatively non-ultra-long torque wrench, the final 80 lb wrenching took a smidge o' muscle. I entered the engine bay for that one and stood where the stock IC normally is (though I have an FMIC), finding it easier leverage-wise to do the deed.

 

[ITSAV6]

You have to use the sealant! Some go into the water jacket and will leak water!

 

[Terbro]

I know this is a bit late to ask this question, but were the heads new from champion ?

Champion Irons. Not sure how Nick came to get them, but he told me they were fresh/new. I believe he's better known to be more of a TA Performance kind a guy, he had them basically at the ready. They look 100% as he said...fresh and crisp, as if they came straight from Champion...so I have little concern that they're not nice an' flat.

 

[Terbro]

You have to use the sealant! Some go into the water jacket and will leak water!

I just reread dynoman's post. I guess I misinterpreted it. I saw the "some use..." and then he spoke of the two different brands of sealant. Now I see in the last part of the last sentence...the pesky little word need. Sigh...

So what you're telling me, is I have to do it all over again.

 

[t-typinator]

Champion Irons. Not sure how Nick came to get them, but he told me they were fresh/new. I believe he's better known to be more of a TA Performance kind a guy, he had them basically at the ready. They look 100% as he said...fresh and crisp, as if they came straight from Champion...so I have little concern that they're not nice an' flat.

You should be safe then,I just always check them with a straight edge because of my last fiasco.
It doesn't cost anything and only takes a couple of minutes,and can save alot of time, money and future headaches .
Unfortunatly i didn't think to suggest it earlier.
Good luck ,i feel your pain on this build, with all the time, money,and aggrevation you have had with it ,hopefully you'll catch a break on this go-round.

Also i would do a search about heads leaking coolant,i'm pretty sure there has been a few threads about using sealant on the studs because of them going into water jackets.

 

[t-typinator]

Actually the first Sticky at the top of this Forum (Engine Tech) is on installing head gaskets using studs that addresses this sealant subject.
But with a search more info can be dug up.

 

[Terbro]

On the torque, hand tight means 'hand tight', not 'hex wrench in your hand' tight'

I was wondering about that, and even learned that the older generation studs (from ARP, I presume) from didn't come with hex holes in the end of them. But I watched two vids, both of whom sounded like they knew their stuff (I'm sure you've seem some vids of guys who appear to be wingin' it...and decide to make a vid while they're at it). Two vids I saw, one guy specifically mentioned that while it's supposed to be "hand tight", he actually torques his to 10 lbs. I didn't give that one too much weight, while ARP studs, it was on a Honda head.

The one that I went by was this one (though unfortunately, I ignored the sealant):

You'll notice he uses a T-handle hex wrench and appears to tighten them with even a bit of force. I didn't do that. I used a screwdriver handle ended tool, but stopped as soon as I felt resistance. Probably 2 lb torque. The guy in the vid above looks like he was pushin' 10, and the other guy mentioned he goes 10.

To me, that just seems too odd, to try and tighten a stud with one's fingers only...what if the threads aren't in the best shape and one can't screw it in sufficiently with their fingers, gripping threads on the top end of the stud?

The bottom line is...what problem could it cause? The stud is down in there fairly good. I definitely didn't over tighten it.

 

[Terbro]

You should be safe then,I just always check them with a straight edge because of my last fiasco.
It doesn't cost anything and only takes a couple of minutes,and can save alot of time, money and future headaches .
Unfortunatly i didn't think to suggest it earlier.
Good luck ,i feel your pain on this build, with all the time, money,and aggrevation you have had with it ,hopefully you'll catch a break on this go-round.

Also i would do a search about heads leaking coolant,i'm pretty sure there has been a few threads about using sealant on the studs because of them going into water jackets.

See...there's so much to learn. Never thought about checking the heads for flatness. Like you said, I'm probably fine, being that they're from Champion. I think they condition and machine their heads awesomely, from what I remember. But still...a quick straight-edge check would've been so easy.

And that's so funny...I Goog'ed and Youtubed on heads install...never thought to look for a sticky. But in hindsight...that was just a bonehead move on my part - major. I got the tip this afternoon, and watched another vid as well. Dynoman's words "some use..." stuck in my brainium and I just mistakenly concluded it was optional. I had Locktite on my mind, and that's just another lesson to me. I had never heard about sealant before, and just wasn't paying attention. So now, "alllllrighty then" takes on new meaning - gotta do it over again tomorrow.

The good news...is I'll do it right. I'm okay with that. It was a beautiful day today. I'm in no rush. There's still lots o' work to do. I'm not thinking about it yet, but I'm realizing that I think some of the PITA things will be bolting all the accessories, crank sensor, and other miscellaneous components back on - when I didn't take them off! I r&r'ed a TR motor in '02, and so I can't exactly tell you that my memory is fresh on how all that stuff goes together.

But...I'll worry about that later. Tomorrow: Redo the studs with sealant and then put the rear main cap back on with a new seal.

 

[t-typinator]

I was wondering about that, and even learned that the older generation studs (from ARP, I presume) from didn't come with hex holes in the end of them. But I watched two vids, both of whom sounded like they knew their stuff (I'm sure you've seem some vids of guys who appear to be wingin' it...and decide to make a vid while they're at it). Two vids I saw, one guy specifically mentioned that while it's supposed to be "hand tight", he actually torques his to 10 lbs. I didn't give that one too much weight, while ARP studs, it was on a Honda head.

The one that I went by was this one (though unfortunately, I ignored the sealant):

You'll notice he uses a T-handle hex wrench and appears to tighten them with even a bit of force. I didn't do that. I used a screwdriver handle ended tool, but stopped as soon as I felt resistance. Probably 2 lb torque. The guy in the vid above looks like he was pushin' 10, and the other guy mentioned he goes 10.

To me, that just seems too odd, to try and tighten a stud with one's fingers only...what if the threads aren't in the best shape and one can't screw it in sufficiently with their fingers, gripping threads on the top end of the stud?

The bottom line is...what problem could it cause? The stud is down in there fairly good. I definitely didn't over tighten it.

I'm thinking that is kind of a moot point now anyway.
You really should be taking them back off and using sealant on those studs.
After all you have been through with this you don't want to get it all back together and have all kinds of coolant leaking into your motor.
See what the Guru's suggest.

 

[t-typinator]

See...there's so much to learn. Never thought about checking the heads for flatness. Like you said, I'm probably fine, being that they're from Champion. I think they condition and machine their heads awesomely, from what I remember. But still...a quick straight-edge check would've been so easy.

And that's so funny...I Goog'ed and Youtubed on heads install...never thought to look for a sticky. But in hindsight...that was just a bonehead move on my part - major. I got the tip this afternoon, and watched another vid as well. Dynoman's words "some use..." stuck in my brainium and I just mistakenly concluded it was optional. I had Locktite on my mind, and that's just another lesson to me. I had never heard about sealant before, and just wasn't paying attention. So now, "alllllrighty then" takes on new meaning - gotta do it over again tomorrow.

The good news...is I'll do it right. I'm okay with that. It was a beautiful day today. I'm in no rush. There's still lots o' work to do. I'm not thinking about it yet, but I'm realizing that I think some of the PITA things will be bolting all the accessories, crank sensor, and other miscellaneous components back on - when I didn't take them off! I r&r'ed a TR motor in '02, and so I can't exactly tell you that my memory is fresh on how all that stuff goes together.

But...I'll worry about that later. Tomorrow: Redo the studs with sealant and then put the rear main cap back on with a new seal.

Champion does mill them for flatness for a good seal but i didn't know if they were new from Champion or just freshened up/used.
Now that they are coming back off it wouldn't hurt to check them.

As far as putting all the accessories and stuff back onto the front of the engine ,probably the worst part is going to be figuring out which of the bolts go where,(Many diff sizes and thread types etc.) also getting all the vaccum lines hooked up correctly is important too. but you'll figure it out.
If you were the one that had taken it apart you could have done a little video of the engine compartment before you took it apart that makes things easier upon re-assembly. you can also put things in seperate marked bags to simplify things.

Getting that cam, and all the timing gear right is going to be of major importance, take your time on that and do lots of searching and reading and if your mechanic is still willing to help you then thats a plus.

 

[t-typinator]

One more suggestion, While it's apart check out your Headers for any cracks,look especially close at the drivers side one.
Now is the time to discover any cracks and have them fixed.